Tony Blair vs Christopher Hitchens

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Re: Tony Blair vs Christopher Hitchens

Post by Deep Sea Isopod » Sun Nov 28, 2010 5:29 pm

Ronja wrote:
Deep Sea Isopod wrote:It's all over the bloody place....
It sure is! Thanks for figuring out the order & posting - we owe you one. :td:
I'll sort the rest tomorrow. I'm too pissed now. :drunk:
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Re: Tony Blair vs Christopher Hitchens

Post by Chinaski » Sun Nov 28, 2010 5:37 pm

Part one:


Part two:


Part three:


Part four:


Part five:


Part six:


Part seven:


Part eight:


Part nine:
Is there for honest poverty
That hangs his heid and a' that
The coward slave, we pass him by
We dare be puir for a' that.

Imagehttp://imagegen.last.fm/iTunesFIXED/rec ... mphony.gif[/img2]

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Re: Tony Blair vs Christopher Hitchens

Post by Ronja » Sun Nov 28, 2010 5:41 pm

Chinaski, thanks for completing what DSI began.

I wonder if the religious will ever give up on the "inspires to good works" card - will it ever be so transparently hollow that they will no more have the nerve to try to pass it? :sighsm:
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Re: Tony Blair vs Christopher Hitchens

Post by Ronja » Sun Nov 28, 2010 5:46 pm

There's a strong smell of the "No True Scotsman" fallacy in the beginning of part 4, if mine ears do not deceive me.
"The internet is made of people. People matter. This includes you. Stop trying to sell everything about yourself to everyone. Don’t just hammer away and repeat and talk at people—talk TO people. It’s organic. Make stuff for the internet that matters to you, even if it seems stupid. Do it because it’s good and feels important. Put up more cat pictures. Make more songs. Show your doodles. Give things away and take things that are free." - Maureen J

"...anyone who says it’s “just the Internet” can :pawiz: . And then when they come back, they can :pawiz: again." - Tigger

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Re: Tony Blair vs Christopher Hitchens

Post by Ronja » Sun Nov 28, 2010 6:24 pm

OK, first non-lame statement (IMO) by Tony found, in part 4 at 8:30 "Get rid of religion - but you are not going get rid of fanaticism, and you're not going to get rid of the wrong in the world."
"The internet is made of people. People matter. This includes you. Stop trying to sell everything about yourself to everyone. Don’t just hammer away and repeat and talk at people—talk TO people. It’s organic. Make stuff for the internet that matters to you, even if it seems stupid. Do it because it’s good and feels important. Put up more cat pictures. Make more songs. Show your doodles. Give things away and take things that are free." - Maureen J

"...anyone who says it’s “just the Internet” can :pawiz: . And then when they come back, they can :pawiz: again." - Tigger

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Re: Tony Blair vs Christopher Hitchens

Post by Ronja » Sun Nov 28, 2010 7:12 pm

Argh, I can't listen to any more Blair right now. It's too much of "true religion this" and "true believers that." I'll have to continue from part 5 (3:45) at some later date.
"The internet is made of people. People matter. This includes you. Stop trying to sell everything about yourself to everyone. Don’t just hammer away and repeat and talk at people—talk TO people. It’s organic. Make stuff for the internet that matters to you, even if it seems stupid. Do it because it’s good and feels important. Put up more cat pictures. Make more songs. Show your doodles. Give things away and take things that are free." - Maureen J

"...anyone who says it’s “just the Internet” can :pawiz: . And then when they come back, they can :pawiz: again." - Tigger

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Re: Tony Blair vs Christopher Hitchens

Post by PsychoSerenity » Sun Nov 28, 2010 11:42 pm

Deep Sea Isopod wrote:I've lost 14 minutes of my life watching the intro! :lay:
Sorry about that. :hehe: I've only just started watching them now, didn't have time earlier.


Thanks Chinaski for sorting them out!

And Ronja, I'm loving your running commentary - I'll have to check back and see if I agree, when I get to each point. :tup:
[Disclaimer - if this is comes across like I think I know what I'm talking about, I want to make it clear that I don't. I'm just trying to get my thoughts down]

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Re: Tony Blair vs Christopher Hitchens

Post by Ronja » Mon Nov 29, 2010 6:37 am

There is a good analysis / partial summary by Matthew Adams http://blog.newhumanist.org.uk/2010/11/ ... blair.html
"The internet is made of people. People matter. This includes you. Stop trying to sell everything about yourself to everyone. Don’t just hammer away and repeat and talk at people—talk TO people. It’s organic. Make stuff for the internet that matters to you, even if it seems stupid. Do it because it’s good and feels important. Put up more cat pictures. Make more songs. Show your doodles. Give things away and take things that are free." - Maureen J

"...anyone who says it’s “just the Internet” can :pawiz: . And then when they come back, they can :pawiz: again." - Tigger

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Re: Tony Blair vs Christopher Hitchens

Post by Ronja » Mon Nov 29, 2010 7:42 am

In part 5, mostly towards its end, Blair had some IMO nice lines about the importance of freedom of speech for religious as well as secular people, and some questions (not yet answered, at least) about how to bring about a society where religion can be the "powerful force for good" (or words to that effect) that it can be, and at the same time avoid the oppressive side of religion and atrocities in the name of religion. He also used somewhat entertaining self-abuse rather well when stating that the current problems of Middle-East are more the failings of politicians than of the religious leaders.

However, most of his arguments in favor of religion were quite :yawn: Consider:
-religion has done bad, but has done good also
-religion is not the only excuse used for doing evil things
-for "truly" religious people, their religion is a force motivating them for good

There may have been something else, too, but those are the ones I remember. Hitch got some wonderful chances to throw stuff right back at Blair, and did so with his usual wit (the Adams blog I linked to above mentions some of them).
"The internet is made of people. People matter. This includes you. Stop trying to sell everything about yourself to everyone. Don’t just hammer away and repeat and talk at people—talk TO people. It’s organic. Make stuff for the internet that matters to you, even if it seems stupid. Do it because it’s good and feels important. Put up more cat pictures. Make more songs. Show your doodles. Give things away and take things that are free." - Maureen J

"...anyone who says it’s “just the Internet” can :pawiz: . And then when they come back, they can :pawiz: again." - Tigger

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Re: Tony Blair vs Christopher Hitchens

Post by Ronja » Mon Nov 29, 2010 7:52 am

Wow! If you are going to watch only one small clip from the whole approx. 1.5 hours, watch the first 5 minutes of part 6. Tony comes with a very civilized and reasonable plea, which I am afraid Hitch pretty much slaughters, even though indirectly and apparently not entirely intentionally.

Disturbing for the listener, though IMO in a healthy way.

Edit: Part 6 as a whole packs quite a punch compared to the everything before it, IMO. More worthwhile than anything thus far - maybe neither Tony nor Hitch had properly warmed up before this? Or maybe it is just the stimulation from the audience questions?
"The internet is made of people. People matter. This includes you. Stop trying to sell everything about yourself to everyone. Don’t just hammer away and repeat and talk at people—talk TO people. It’s organic. Make stuff for the internet that matters to you, even if it seems stupid. Do it because it’s good and feels important. Put up more cat pictures. Make more songs. Show your doodles. Give things away and take things that are free." - Maureen J

"...anyone who says it’s “just the Internet” can :pawiz: . And then when they come back, they can :pawiz: again." - Tigger

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Re: Tony Blair vs Christopher Hitchens

Post by GrahamH » Mon Nov 29, 2010 10:31 am

View the summary on BBC.
2:1 in favour of Hitchens

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Re: Tony Blair vs Christopher Hitchens

Post by Ronja » Mon Nov 29, 2010 10:48 am

Did anyone else flinch during part 6, when Hitch described the "religiosity" of George W. Bush as the easy and comfortable way for him, seeing as he had "joined his wife's church"? That came very close to striking under the belt, in my book - not that Tony doesn't fully deserve it, but I still flinched. :oops: :hehe:
"The internet is made of people. People matter. This includes you. Stop trying to sell everything about yourself to everyone. Don’t just hammer away and repeat and talk at people—talk TO people. It’s organic. Make stuff for the internet that matters to you, even if it seems stupid. Do it because it’s good and feels important. Put up more cat pictures. Make more songs. Show your doodles. Give things away and take things that are free." - Maureen J

"...anyone who says it’s “just the Internet” can :pawiz: . And then when they come back, they can :pawiz: again." - Tigger

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Re: Tony Blair vs Christopher Hitchens

Post by Trolldor » Mon Nov 29, 2010 2:13 pm

I lol'd at Hitch.
"The fact is that far more crime and child abuse has been committed by zealots in the name of God, Jesus and Mohammed than has ever been committed in the name of Satan. Many people don't like that statement but few can argue with it."

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Re: Tony Blair vs Christopher Hitchens

Post by Xamonas Chegwé » Mon Nov 29, 2010 4:10 pm

Just got through watching the whole thing. Blair just repeated himself throughout - whatever he was asked, he came up with the same answers: -

Yes, bad things are done 'in the name of religion', but a lot of good things too.
When bad things are done 'in the name of religion', it is because those that do them are following literal doctrine rather than 'the essence of religion'.
It is the religiosity of people of faith that compels them to do good.

Hitch threw point after point after rebuttal after rebuttal at him but he just bounced back with the same lines - still the politician, Tony, never knowingly gave a straight answer to a question in your life, mate! I loved it when Hitchens picked him up on the 'in the name of religion' thing - I was beginning to get annoyed at it as well. I wish he had also pointed out that the religious must be pretty shitty people at heart if they need to be compelled to do good when others do it simply because it is right!

I would like to know the exact score in the vote at the end. The initial vote was 22% for, 56% against, 21% don't know - with 75% saying thy were prepared to change their vote. This implies that the margin was 2:1 against before the debate started, so was anybody's mind changed? :dunno:
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Re: Tony Blair vs Christopher Hitchens

Post by PsychoSerenity » Mon Nov 29, 2010 8:43 pm

First 20 seconds of part 7 :hehe:



Hehehehehe hehe hehehehehehehehe hehe hehe hehe hehehehe...

hehehehe hehe hehehehehehehe...

hehehe hehe hehe hehe....

You said "in respect of Jerusalem, it is absolutely imperative that we doo-doo."... hehe hehe hehe...

hehehe hehe hehe hehehe hehehe hehe hehe hehe hehe....

Aside from childish humour though, I have to agree with XC, Blair is repeating the same flawed answers again and again.
[Disclaimer - if this is comes across like I think I know what I'm talking about, I want to make it clear that I don't. I'm just trying to get my thoughts down]

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