Tony Blair vs Christopher Hitchens

[Deep Sea Isopod]

It's all over the bloody place....

It sure is! Thanks for figuring out the order & posting - we owe you one.

I'll sort the rest tomorrow. I'm too pissed now.

[Chinaski]

Part one:


Part two:


Part three:


Part four:


Part five:


Part six:


Part seven:


Part eight:


Part nine:

[Ronja]

Chinaski, thanks for completing what DSI began.

I wonder if the religious will ever give up on the "inspires to good works" card - will it ever be so transparently hollow that they will no more have the nerve to try to pass it? :sighsm:

[Ronja]

There's a strong smell of the "No True Scotsman" fallacy in the beginning of part 4, if mine ears do not deceive me.

[Ronja]

OK, first non-lame statement (IMO) by Tony found, in part 4 at 8:30 "Get rid of religion - but you are not going get rid of fanaticism, and you're not going to get rid of the wrong in the world."

[Ronja]

Argh, I can't listen to any more Blair right now. It's too much of "true religion this" and "true believers that." I'll have to continue from part 5 (3:45) at some later date.

[PsychoSerenity]

I've lost 14 minutes of my life watching the intro!

Sorry about that. I've only just started watching them now, didn't have time earlier.


Thanks Chinaski for sorting them out!

And Ronja, I'm loving your running commentary - I'll have to check back and see if I agree, when I get to each point.

[Ronja]

There is a good analysis / partial summary by Matthew Adams http://blog.newhumanist.org.uk/2010/11/ ... blair.html

[Ronja]

In part 5, mostly towards its end, Blair had some IMO nice lines about the importance of freedom of speech for religious as well as secular people, and some questions (not yet answered, at least) about how to bring about a society where religion can be the "powerful force for good" (or words to that effect) that it can be, and at the same time avoid the oppressive side of religion and atrocities in the name of religion. He also used somewhat entertaining self-abuse rather well when stating that the current problems of Middle-East are more the failings of politicians than of the religious leaders.

However, most of his arguments in favor of religion were quite Consider:
-religion has done bad, but has done good also
-religion is not the only excuse used for doing evil things
-for "truly" religious people, their religion is a force motivating them for good

There may have been something else, too, but those are the ones I remember. Hitch got some wonderful chances to throw stuff right back at Blair, and did so with his usual wit (the Adams blog I linked to above mentions some of them).

[Ronja]

Wow! If you are going to watch only one small clip from the whole approx. 1.5 hours, watch the first 5 minutes of part 6. Tony comes with a very civilized and reasonable plea, which I am afraid Hitch pretty much slaughters, even though indirectly and apparently not entirely intentionally.

Disturbing for the listener, though IMO in a healthy way.

Edit: Part 6 as a whole packs quite a punch compared to the everything before it, IMO. More worthwhile than anything thus far - maybe neither Tony nor Hitch had properly warmed up before this? Or maybe it is just the stimulation from the audience questions?

[GrahamH]

View the summary on BBC.

2:1 in favour of Hitchens

[Ronja]

Did anyone else flinch during part 6, when Hitch described the "religiosity" of George W. Bush as the easy and comfortable way for him, seeing as he had "joined his wife's church"? That came very close to striking under the belt, in my book - not that Tony doesn't fully deserve it, but I still flinched.

[Trolldor]

I lol'd at Hitch.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

Just got through watching the whole thing. Blair just repeated himself throughout - whatever he was asked, he came up with the same answers: -

Yes, bad things are done 'in the name of religion', but a lot of good things too.
When bad things are done 'in the name of religion', it is because those that do them are following literal doctrine rather than 'the essence of religion'.
It is the religiosity of people of faith that compels them to do good.

Hitch threw point after point after rebuttal after rebuttal at him but he just bounced back with the same lines - still the politician, Tony, never knowingly gave a straight answer to a question in your life, mate! I loved it when Hitchens picked him up on the 'in the name of religion' thing - I was beginning to get annoyed at it as well. I wish he had also pointed out that the religious must be pretty shitty people at heart if they need to be compelled to do good when others do it simply because it is right!

I would like to know the exact score in the vote at the end. The initial vote was 22% for, 56% against, 21% don't know - with 75% saying thy were prepared to change their vote. This implies that the margin was 2:1 against before the debate started, so was anybody's mind changed?

[PsychoSerenity]

First 20 seconds of part 7



Hehehehehe hehe hehehehehehehehe hehe hehe hehe hehehehe...

hehehehe hehe hehehehehehehe...

hehehe hehe hehe hehe....

You said "in respect of Jerusalem, it is absolutely imperative that we doo-doo."... hehe hehe hehe...

hehehe hehe hehe hehehe hehehe hehe hehe hehe hehe....

Aside from childish humour though, I have to agree with XC, Blair is repeating the same flawed answers again and again.