"Alt-right" Still Parading Ignorance, Stupidity, Malice, Etc.

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Re: "Alt-right" Still Parading Ignorance, Stupidity, Malice, Etc.

Post by Rum » Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:16 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 7:44 am
The UK could have been in the same position as Norway but Thatcher used the money against the miners and passed it around her cronies who are now the Brexiteers.
Some evidence please. Or is this just you trotting out your knee jerk prejudices as usual.

Thatcher has a lot to answer for without making shit up. The cost of fighting the miners is a drop in the ocean compared with the welfare bill the country pays every year.

The miners’ strike and associated costs were around 1.5 billion. The annual (annual) welfare bill for the UK is around 222billion.

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Re: "Alt-right" Still Parading Ignorance, Stupidity, Malice, Etc.

Post by Scot Dutchy » Fri Apr 12, 2019 10:08 am

Plus the rest. Proof of those figures please. That figure would hardly cover the police costs.
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Re: "Alt-right" Still Parading Ignorance, Stupidity, Malice, Etc.

Post by Rum » Fri Apr 12, 2019 10:14 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 10:08 am
Plus the rest. Proof of those figures please. That figure would hardly cover the police costs.
Afraid not. You made the assertion. Back it up or admit you are wildly exaggerating.

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Re: "Alt-right" Still Parading Ignorance, Stupidity, Malice, Etc.

Post by pErvinalia » Fri Apr 12, 2019 11:39 am

This will be the point Scot turns personal.
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Re: "Alt-right" Still Parading Ignorance, Stupidity, Malice, Etc.

Post by Sean Hayden » Fri Apr 12, 2019 11:46 am

I'm not making excuses. I said the comparison is suspect and it is. It gets even worse when you start trying to make the differences out to be down to character flaws. :lol:

Anyway, we spend a lot of money on welfare. Which leads nicely into why your numbers count but mine don't? Norway is in this together, not afraid of strangers, look at their refugee numbers! But when I point out the US had led in this area for decades, it's ho-hum, no indication of being "in this together"? --that oh so Norwegian of attitudes.
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Re: "Alt-right" Still Parading Ignorance, Stupidity, Malice, Etc.

Post by Rum » Fri Apr 12, 2019 11:52 am

pErvinalia wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 11:39 am
This will be the point Scot turns personal.
Actually I’ve looked again and other estimates concerning the overall cost of the strike including policing, damage to the economy and so forth put the figure nearly 5 billion.

Even so it dwarfs in comparison to the amount we spend on welfare every year. And what money exactly went into the pockets of Thatcher’s mates and how is another matter again.

I think it’s called flinging the shit.

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Re: "Alt-right" Still Parading Ignorance, Stupidity, Malice, Etc.

Post by Hermit » Fri Apr 12, 2019 12:22 pm

Sean Hayden wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 11:46 am
Anyway, we spend a lot of money on welfare.
Yeah, I'm sure you do. Let's look at one of the most important social programs, your health scheme, shall we? Privately funded for decades, and twice as expensive as anywhere else.

Image

The result? Not so glorious.

Image

Then came ACA, and what a fucking train wreck that turned out to be. Why? Because you could not permit a single payer system on ideological grounds.

You're being fucked left, right and centre for the sake of the illusion of individual freedom, while the haves just keep laughing all the way to the bank, suckers.

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Re: "Alt-right" Still Parading Ignorance, Stupidity, Malice, Etc.

Post by Sean Hayden » Fri Apr 12, 2019 12:43 pm

I don't think we are opposed to more affordable healthcare, and certainly not for ideological reasons. The comparisons are suspect, they're tricky.
Compared with peer nations, the United States sends people to the hospital less often, it has a smaller share of specialist physicians, and it gives people about the same number of hospitalizations and doctors’ visits, according to a new study. The quality of health care looks pretty good, it finds, while its spending on social services outside of health care, like housing and education, looked fairly typical.
...
When it came to many of the measures of health system function, the United States was in the middle of the pack, not an outlier, as Dr. Jha had expected. Many analysts have called for the country to shift its physician training away from specialty care and toward more primary care medicine, for example. But the study found that 43 percent of U.S. doctors practice primary care medicine, about typical for the group.
...
“I don’t think there’s any of these countries where if you went and talked to them individually, they wouldn’t say they’re having a health care cost crisis,” he said. “They’re all struggling with paying for new technology and the cost of the system.”
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/13/upsh ... d.amp.html
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Re: "Alt-right" Still Parading Ignorance, Stupidity, Malice, Etc.

Post by Hermit » Fri Apr 12, 2019 1:03 pm

Have another look at the charts I linked to, Sean. Then try again.

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Re: "Alt-right" Still Parading Ignorance, Stupidity, Malice, Etc.

Post by Sean Hayden » Fri Apr 12, 2019 1:24 pm

Yeah, what about them?

Here's an interesting Forbes article: https://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothec ... b7b0f92b98

From there you get: https://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/04/business/04view.html

There are of course counters for all of these as well. I'm not sure why you think the comparisons are not suspect and tricky. :dunno:
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Re: "Alt-right" Still Parading Ignorance, Stupidity, Malice, Etc.

Post by Brian Peacock » Fri Apr 12, 2019 2:42 pm

Comparisons between healthcare systems are difficult for, erm, systemic reasons, but comparisons in costs and outcomes are easier as they have a more objective footing. The US delivers excellent standards of care with outcomes in the same ball park as the rest of the developed world. Nonetheless, that solid set of averages in terms of delivery and outcome come at a significantly higher price to the public purse, and to the patient individually.

The problem here is that if we engage in a discussion about healthcare which mainly focuses on one-or-other of those aspects, on delivery/outcomes vs cost, then we're only having half a debate, and it's at this point where I'd like to raise a third important factor in any healthcare system: access. Delivery and outcomes are directly linked to access to healthcare service -- if you don't have access to a Dr. for example nothing is delivered and outcomes go the wrong way. Similarly, access is also tied to cost -- if you can't afford the cost of a consultation or treatment then it doesn't matter how good or plentifull your local services are, and outcomes go the wrong way again.

And here I think one can make a valuable comparison between the US healthcare system and the standard universal model implemented (albeit differently) in, for example, the EU. In the US cost, specifically cost to the patient, is a significant factor in limiting access to healthcare services, and in that limitation delivery and outcomes inevitably fall short. Some might argue that cost to the patient is not a significant limiting factor, and in absolute terms there may be a point to be had here, but the fact remains that medical indebtedness and bankruptcies run high in the US whereas it is so rare in the EU as to be almost non-existent (and I qualify that such only because I can't find any data on people losing their houses or failing to complete a treatment etc because they can't meet their medical bills in Europe).

In short, this is where I think one can say, objectively, that the US healthcare system falls short - and I don't think it's particularly controversial to do so. When we align this access-limited shortfall with the fact that the US spends significantly more public money on healthcare than almost any other nation then we can also say that that the US system is also falling short in terms of overall delivery and outcomes even as individual delivery and outcomes stand firmly in the middle ground.
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Re: "Alt-right" Still Parading Ignorance, Stupidity, Malice, Etc.

Post by Sean Hayden » Fri Apr 12, 2019 3:44 pm

I don't know man. I would have agreed with you not that long ago. But a bit of digging reveals a lot of bullshit going around. (e.g. a third of adult Americans didn't have access to healthcare because of cost...the UK is the world's best provider of healthcare not tied to wealth, record numbers of Americans are going broke paying for healthcare)

These are bullshit claims, and they are everywhere.

What about the inequalities in healthcare provision for people with severe mental illness
What about the horrible healthcare provided to the elderly in the UK
Or the near impossibility of seeing a specialist unless you're fucking dying in the Netherregions

--these are probably all bullshit claims too...maybe not?

:haironfuckingfire:

So when it comes to what is or isn't controversial regarding healthcare and systems that are working I'm going to be a bit more skeptical going forward.
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Re: "Alt-right" Still Parading Ignorance, Stupidity, Malice, Etc.

Post by Rum » Fri Apr 12, 2019 3:49 pm

Health care is pretty good for the elderly here - as good as for younger people anyway.

Social care if you have very little money on the other hand is pretty bad.

I agree with the drift of this though. Comparing the various systems is difficult. Perhaps user satisfaction is the best indicator however subjective and adrift from real outcomes it might be.

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Re: "Alt-right" Still Parading Ignorance, Stupidity, Malice, Etc.

Post by Sean Hayden » Fri Apr 12, 2019 3:55 pm

I'm not surprised to hear that. But people disagree and they have research to back them up:
The three pieces of research showed:

There are now an estimated 1.2 million over-65s going without help for care - nearly one in eight of all older people

Some 300,000 of them have difficulty with three or more tasks, including dressing, washing and going to the toilet

Councils agreed to help under half the 1.3 million people who approached them for care last year

The BBC identified 11 councils that rejected more than 75% of applications

Where home care was provided "serious problems" were identified in the way dementia patients were treated

Staff said they had not been given enough training to cope with the complex needs people had

Families reported examples of poor care, including loved ones not being given medication, being left in dirty clothes for days and going missing after homes had not been properly secured
Elderly failed by 'shameful' care system
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-37992488

Nearly 1 in 8 of all older people! That raises a red flag for me...I'd definitely want to poke that one around a bit and see how well it holds up.
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Re: "Alt-right" Still Parading Ignorance, Stupidity, Malice, Etc.

Post by Sean Hayden » Fri Apr 12, 2019 4:08 pm

Don't feel bad though, in the US nearly half of elderly people with dementia rot in their beds while their children come by once a month to collect the check, very often not even going inside to see if their parents are still alive.
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