Prayers before Legislative Bodies

[JimC]

I agree, Lak, with the proviso that it really wasn't that long ago that religion was a powerful, and usually malignant influence on society in western countries as well. The Inquisition was real and nasty, however funny the Monty Python skit was...

Christianity has largely had its teeth pulled over the last few hundred years in the west, but it didn't happen without a struggle.

[Hermit]

Actual, honest-to-God theocracies aren't much fun. Spend some time in any of the Arab Gulf States, particularly Saudi Arabia or Kuwait, for an obect lesson. North Nigeria is anther garden spot. Places like Bahrain and Dubai are almost worse, in a way, because of the all-pervasive stench of hypocrisy. Russian hookers, shit-faced Saudis, and the morning call to prayer, what a combo. Not a one of us Westerners (or you Ozzie wannabes) have a fucking clue what living in a real theocratic state is like, our bitching and moaning are truly First World Problems.

Thanks, Richard. You said it better when you were in sarcasm mode, though.

Dear Muslima...

[pErvinalia]

If collecting a tax and paying it out to churches is not considered "payment from the state treasury", then so be it.

Indeed. Church tax is not "money from the state treasury used to fund religious institutions." It is a tax, a.k.a. tithe, raised by the churches which have contracted the revenue authorities of the governments of the various German states to organise payment by their members on their behalf. Part of those taxes are even remitted to the state governments as payment for administrative costs incurred in the process. To say "church tax is money from the state treasury used to fund religious institutions" is false by omission.

Also, in Germany, if you declare yourself not a member of a church, so you don't have to pay the Church Tax, that means you cannot get married in a German church, or have your kid Baptized there. Ie. from the State's perspective, you are in and you pay, or if you don't pay, you're out of the church. LOL. Good way for the churches to use the machinery of the State to coerce people to keep paying a church tax for a church they don't go to.

In Germany religious people get married twice. Once in church and once at the Standesamt. Nonreligious people only get married once, and that is enough. They save on the church's wedding fee as well as the church tax without suffering any disadvantages. Since 1876 only the latter is recognised by the German government.

A similar arrangement applies to births. The only thing that counts is the birth certificate issued at the same Standesamt, where the existence of newly borns and their names are registered.

The machinery of state as a tool of coercion in favour of religious institutions does not exist. Peer pressure does. Or at least it did when I lived there. What the relatives, neighbours, work colleagues, acquaintances etc said and thought about you was important. Not being a catholic or protestant placed a significant social stigma on you 50 years ago.



NineBerry pointed out that I was wrong about Hitler's role regarding church tax. That law was created by the Weimar Republic in 1919. In a not so systematic form it even predates Bismarck's re-establishment of the German nation by almost 70 years.

That time when 42 tried to describe German state procedures to Hermit and Nineberry..

[Scot Dutchy]

Actually, you used to be, until the 1500 somethings... maybe the Reform took quick and the Spanish netherlands stopped fairly quick to be a Catholic country, but don"t forget you were like everybody before Luther posted his silly theses on a cathedral door.

After the Spaniards were kicked out. Theocratic rule ceased well bourgeois rule resumed. Freedom of religion was always there because there was no state church. We had no coronation as the monarch was appointed by the good burgers and had bugger all to do with anyone else.

As in Germany the only marriage, birth and deaths were those registered at the town hall. A church wedding does not exist or an christening. Our royal family only follow the tradition because of Trix. None of them go to church or have anything to do with religious institutions. Trix's old church in the Hague is now a museum.

[Seabass]

Actual, honest-to-God theocracies aren't much fun. Spend some time in any of the Arab Gulf States, particularly Saudi Arabia or Kuwait, for an obect lesson. North Nigeria is anther garden spot. Places like Bahrain and Dubai are almost worse, in a way, because of the all-pervasive stench of hypocrisy. Russian hookers, shit-faced Saudis, and the morning call to prayer, what a combo. Not a one of us Westerners (or you Ozzie wannabes) have a fucking clue what living in a real theocratic state is like, our bitching and moaning are truly First World Problems.

Well, if we keep putting Republicans in charge, we'll find out what it's like to live in a theocracy soon enough...

Last week, the Georgia House narrowly gave final approval to the controversial anti-abortion “heartbeat” bill that would outlaw the procedure in most cases at about six weeks.
The House voted 92-78 to approve House Bill 481. It takes 91 votes for a bill to pass in the House.Gov. Brian Kemp is expected to sign the legislation sometime this month. If the bill becomes law, it would be among the most restrictive in the country and abortion rights advocates have vowed to challenge the legislation in court.
https://www.ajc.com/news/state--regiona ... AQ5ZZz1lI/

[Svartalf]

well, the Republicans have spent the 150 years since their creation trying to establish theocratic rule over the country, never understood why they started their career with the abolition of slavery, given how prevalent it is in the OT.

[Scot Dutchy]

Slavery is very much alive in America just the slaves are different.

[Forty Two]

If collecting a tax and paying it out to churches is not considered "payment from the state treasury", then so be it.

Indeed. Church tax is not "money from the state treasury used to fund religious institutions." It is a tax, a.k.a. tithe, raised by the churches which have contracted the revenue authorities of the governments of the various German states to organise payment by their members on their behalf. Part of those taxes are even remitted to the state governments as payment for administrative costs incurred in the process. To say "church tax is money from the state treasury used to fund religious institutions" is false by omission.

LOL - it's mandatory - if you declare a religious affiliation, you must pay the tax, and the taxing authority is used to do that.

If you immigrate, you have to declare if you are a member of religious organization, or that you are not, and if you are say, a Catholic, you have to pay a tax which is collected by the taxing authority and paid to the church, and if you don't pay it, it's an offense and you suffer penalties.

False by omission, indeed....

Also, in Germany, if you declare yourself not a member of a church, so you don't have to pay the Church Tax, that means you cannot get married in a German church, or have your kid Baptized there. Ie. from the State's perspective, you are in and you pay, or if you don't pay, you're out of the church. LOL. Good way for the churches to use the machinery of the State to coerce people to keep paying a church tax for a church they don't go to.

In Germany religious people get married twice. Once in church and once at the Standesamt. Nonreligious people only get married once, and that is enough. They save on the church's wedding fee as well as the church tax without suffering any disadvantages. Since 1876 only the latter is recognised by the German government.

This is a serious breach of the separation of church and state. The State is meddling in who pays what to churches. The established churches love it, of course - they have the State as a collection agency. All fine for Germany, of course.

A similar arrangement applies to births. The only thing that counts is the birth certificate issued at the same Standesamt, where the existence of newly borns and their names are registered.

That depends on what you view as "counting." Don't pay the church tax, can't baptize your kid in the church. Here in the US, the churches determine who gets baptized there, and the State is not the collection agency for the churches.

The machinery of state as a tool of coercion in favour of religious institutions does not exist. Peer pressure does. Or at least it did when I lived there. What the relatives, neighbours, work colleagues, acquaintances etc said and thought about you was important. Not being a catholic or protestant placed a significant social stigma on you 50 years ago.

Very minor issue then. No big deal if any country wants to set up registration systems where people have to disclose to the state if they have a religious affiliation or not, and then based on that, they pay a church tax, which is collected by the government and paid directly to religious institutions. Good to know.

NineBerry pointed out that I was wrong about Hitler's role regarding church tax. That law was created by the Weimar Republic in 1919. In a not so systematic form it even predates Bismarck's re-establishment of the German nation by almost 70 years.

I was aware of that, but that error wasn't really relevant to the discussion.

[laklak]

Svarty, Republicans didn't become the conservative party until the 60s. My Dad was a Republican in the 50s, he was considered shockingly liberal. He wanted blacks to vote and drink out of the same water fountain as whites. Fucking commie. My mom's people were die-hard Democrats, of the traditional, Southern variety. Had black sharecroppers working their farms. Her grandfather shot and killed a black sharecropper for "disrespecting" a white woman, nothing happened to him. Times change.

[NineBerry]

It is up to the religious organizations whether their members pay church taxes or not. For example, muslims don't pay a Mosque tax because their communities do not register. Same for most US style evangelicals. Their organizations don't register to receive taxes, so membership in these churches is not registered with the state and there is no taxes.

[Sean Hayden]

Churches steal from US taxpayers every day they are in operation. Of course you don't see a lot of secular organizations doing the work Churches do...

[Scot Dutchy]

And they do so much.

[Svartalf]

Svarty, Republicans didn't become the conservative party until the 60s. My Dad was a Republican in the 50s, he was considered shockingly liberal. He wanted blacks to vote and drink out of the same water fountain as whites. Fucking commie. My mom's people were die-hard Democrats, of the traditional, Southern variety. Had black sharecroppers working their farms. Her grandfather shot and killed a black sharecropper for "disrespecting" a white woman, nothing happened to him. Times change.

thanks for the data, so the Eisenhower/Kennedy change did mean an inversion of positions for both parties... heck, even in the 70s Nixon was fraggingly liberal in his social policies.

[Forty Two]

Nixon created the Environmental Protection Agency. He created it via Executive Order (now called "executive action" when the media wants to portray something favorably). Later Congress ratified it through legislation.

In early 1970, as a result of heightened public concerns about deteriorating city air, natural areas littered with debris, and urban water supplies contaminated with dangerous impurities, President Richard Nixon presented the House and Senate a groundbreaking 37-point message on the environment. These points included:
requesting four billion dollars for the improvement of water treatment facilities;
asking for national air quality standards and stringent guidelines to lower motor vehicle emissions;
launching federally-funded research to reduce automobile pollution;
ordering a clean-up of federal facilities that had fouled air and water;
seeking legislation to end the dumping of wastes into the Great Lakes;
proposing a tax on lead additives in gasoline;
forwarding to Congress a plan to tighten safeguards on the seaborne transportation of oil; and
approving a National Contingency Plan for the treatment of oil spills.
Around the same time, President Nixon also created a council in part to consider how to organize federal government programs designed to reduce pollution, so that those programs could efficiently address the goals laid out in his message on the environment.

Following the council’s recommendations, the president sent to Congress a plan to consolidate many environmental responsibilities of the federal government under one agency, a new Environmental Protection Agency.

https://www.epa.gov/history/origins-epa

Nixon ended American involvement in the Vietnam War, and his administration succeeded in achieving a negotiated settlement. Nixon became the first U.S. president to visit the People's Republic of China.

Nixon pursued a strategy of detente with the Soviet Union, resulting in the Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty and SALT I, the first two landmark nuclear arms control treaties of their kind.

Nixon pressured Israel over its nuclear program, and his administration developed a peace plan in which Israel would withdraw from the territories it conquered in the Six-Day War.

Political historian and pollster Douglas Schoen argues that Nixon was the most important American figure in post-war U.S. politics, while constitutional law professor Cass Sunstein noted in 2017, "If you are listing the five most consequential Presidents in American history, you could make a good argument that Nixon belongs on the list."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presidenc ... hard_Nixon

Nixon was a very effective President who accomplished a great deal. Not surprising for a skilled politician who served as a US Senator, and Vice President too. If it wasn't for Watergate, he likely would be considered one of the best Presidents in American history. Top five, perhaps.

[Hermit]

If collecting a tax and paying it out to churches is not considered "payment from the state treasury", then so be it.

Indeed. Church tax is not "money from the state treasury used to fund religious institutions." It is a tax, a.k.a. tithe, raised by the churches which have contracted the revenue authorities of the governments of the various German states to organise payment by their members on their behalf. Part of those taxes are even remitted to the state governments as payment for administrative costs incurred in the process. To say "church tax is money from the state treasury used to fund religious institutions" is false by omission.

LOL - it's mandatory - if you declare a religious affiliation, you must pay the tax, and the taxing authority is used to do that.

if you don't pay it, it's an offense and you suffer penalties.

False by omission, indeed....

Another omission by you. Seems to become a bit of a habit of yours. It's the various churches that make the tithe mandatory - or not - as NineBerry pointed out. The state governments are contracted to serve as conduits. If some other organisation did the job I'm sure you would not object. Your objection is due to your ideological blinders.

if you don't pay it, it's an offense and you suffer penalties.

No, you are not penalised other than not being able to avail yourself to church weddings, baptisms and so forth. the consequence of non payment is no different than if payment was to be made directly to the church, but the church member failed to make it.

This is a serious breach of the separation of church and state. The State is meddling in who pays what to churches.

Not at all. The State decides nothing. The churches decide what, if anything and by what means, its members pay.

A similar arrangement applies to births. The only thing that counts is the birth certificate issued at the same Standesamt, where the existence of newly borns and their names are registered.

That depends on what you view as "counting." Don't pay the church tax, can't baptize your kid in the church. Here in the US, the churches determine who gets baptized there, and the State is not the collection agency for the churches.

So the only difference between the USA and Germany turns out to be that some churches in Germany avail themselves to a collection agency while US churches demand direct payments. I am shocked—shocked—to find that such a difference is going on here!

The machinery of state as a tool of coercion in favour of religious institutions does not exist. Peer pressure does. Or at least it did when I lived there. What the relatives, neighbours, work colleagues, acquaintances etc said and thought about you was important. Not being a catholic or protestant placed a significant social stigma on you 50 years ago.

Very minor issue then. No big deal if any country wants to set up registration systems where people have to disclose to the state if they have a religious affiliation or not, and then based on that, they pay a church tax, which is collected by the government and paid directly to religious institutions. Good to know.

If you regard the fact that the machinery of state as a tool of coercion in favour of religious institutions does not exist as a very minor issue, I wonder what you might regard as a major, let alone as a very major one.