Prayers before Legislative Bodies

[Hermit]

Germany's "church tax" which provides something like 70% of church funding in Germany (and Synagogue funding, etc.). That is money from the state treasury used to fund religious institutions.

The church tax is not funded by the state treasury. If you are a Catholic, Protestant, Jew, Muslim or a member of a number of other qualifying religious establishments you are registered as such with the tax department, and the tax department levies a tithe on top of your personal income tax liabilities. The difference between the normal personal income tax liabilities and the tithes thus levied is then passed on to the various religious institutions in proportion to the size of their respective membership.

Kind souls will mention that as an example of typical German efficiency. Not so kindly inclined ones will draw your attention to the fact that this arrangement was introduced by Adolf Hitler.

Such an arrangement would be viewed with horror in the US, and there would be massive opposition. To say that to be a member of a church you MUST pay mandated tithe would not be well-taken here. And, if it was proposed, I think it's a fair prediction that this forum would, same day, have a thread on which most non-Americans would excoriate the crazy nutter religious Americans for pushing for such a program. And, rightly so. My point in bring these examples up is that there is a ton of "mixing of religion and state" all over the "civilized world" and nobody says a damn thing about it. It's just all "cultural" and "no big deal" and such. Look at the countries that have de jure official religions. If the US tried to do that, denizens of States with official religions would be here and at Ratskep and such railing against the monstrous development in the US - and rightly so.

I was merely correcting your error, which was this: "That is money from the state treasury used to fund religious institutions." Seeing you totally ignored that, I'll just repeat: The church tax is not funded by the state treasury.

[laklak]

Yeah the churches here fleece the idiots, but they don't fleece me. I have never, ever, not once, paid money to a church in any form. I have never had to profess a religion to get or keep a job. It's great that you don't have much church participation, but y'all still pay them money because you live in a theocracy. We don't, plus we get gunz and cheap diesel.

We win. 'Murika! Fuk yeah!

[Scot Dutchy]

We never had church taxes. Which church? There were literary hundreds of churches with their own beliefs. Villagers of different churches never spoke to each other never mind collecting taxes. The catholic church never taxed anyone.

[Svartalf]

Better keep your trap shut and let people think you're an eejit than open it up and prove them right.. The Catholic Church drew major revenue from collecting tithes, and did that from everybody but the nobility... actually, profit from tithes, and the naming of bishops always were big sources of clashes between authoritarian monarchs (French, English, and German emperors) and the papacy.

[Forty Two]

Germany's "church tax" which provides something like 70% of church funding in Germany (and Synagogue funding, etc.). That is money from the state treasury used to fund religious institutions.

The church tax is not funded by the state treasury. If you are a Catholic, Protestant, Jew, Muslim or a member of a number of other qualifying religious establishments you are registered as such with the tax department, and the tax department levies a tithe on top of your personal income tax liabilities. The difference between the normal personal income tax liabilities and the tithes thus levied is then passed on to the various religious institutions in proportion to the size of their respective membership.

Kind souls will mention that as an example of typical German efficiency. Not so kindly inclined ones will draw your attention to the fact that this arrangement was introduced by Adolf Hitler.

Such an arrangement would be viewed with horror in the US, and there would be massive opposition. To say that to be a member of a church you MUST pay mandated tithe would not be well-taken here. And, if it was proposed, I think it's a fair prediction that this forum would, same day, have a thread on which most non-Americans would excoriate the crazy nutter religious Americans for pushing for such a program. And, rightly so. My point in bring these examples up is that there is a ton of "mixing of religion and state" all over the "civilized world" and nobody says a damn thing about it. It's just all "cultural" and "no big deal" and such. Look at the countries that have de jure official religions. If the US tried to do that, denizens of States with official religions would be here and at Ratskep and such railing against the monstrous development in the US - and rightly so.

I was merely correcting your error, which was this: "That is money from the state treasury used to fund religious institutions." Seeing you totally ignored that, I'll just repeat: The church tax is not funded by the state treasury.

You are being overly pedantic.

In Germany communities either: (a) require the taxation authorities of the state to collect the fees from the members on the basis of income tax assessment (then, the authorities withhold a collection fee), or (b) choose to collect the church tax themselves. So, if the money is not technically placed in the treasury, it is collected by the state and paid to the churches.

If collecting a tax and paying it out to churches is not considered "payment from the state treasury", then so be it. The reality is that we have a "civilized country" using "taxation authorities" --- "of the state" --- "state taxing authorities" -- to collect fees from members "on the basis of income tax assessment" - or, choosing to collect the "church tax" themselves.

What (b) means is that the churches themselves are given taxing authority. I mean, that's amazing. Churches are given the authority to impose a mandatory tax. If you are a regular, salaried employee, German Church Tax, or Kirchensteuer, is collected through the standard pay-as-you-earn income tax model. It will just show up as a separate line item on your monthly payslip. I.e., it would be payroll tax like social security, medicare, whatever - there it is - "church tax."

Also, in Germany, if you declare yourself not a member of a church, so you don't have to pay the Church Tax, that means you cannot get married in a German church, or have your kid Baptized there. Ie. from the State's perspective, you are in and you pay, or if you don't pay, you're out of the church. LOL. Good way for the churches to use the machinery of the State to coerce people to keep paying a church tax for a church they don't go to.

Such a scheme is plainly unconstitutional in the US. No question about it. It's such an extreme mixing of church and state that it's not even something the religious nutters here have tried yet. They're still trying to get Blaine Amendments overturned here -- Blaine Amendments are in 38 of the 50 State Constitutions and they say that no revenue of the state or any political subdivision or agency thereof shall ever be directly or indirectly used in aid of any church, sect, or religious denomination or in aid of any sectarian institution. Very nice provision, that one.

[Forty Two]

Yeah the churches here fleece the idiots, but they don't fleece me. I have never, ever, not once, paid money to a church in any form. I have never had to profess a religion to get or keep a job. It's great that you don't have much church participation, but y'all still pay them money because you live in a theocracy. We don't, plus we get gunz and cheap diesel.

We win. 'Murika! Fuk yeah!

In the US, the biggest church and state arguments are (a) should the State be able to set it up so you can send your kid to private school using the money that would be paid for your kid to go to a public school, (b) should religious organizations and religious employers be required to pay for things that are contrary to their religious beliefs, and (c) does the city have to allow non-Christian groups to put up non-Christian displays around Christmas time? There are some secondary issues going on about whether it's o.k. for the money to say "In god we trust" and such.

[Svartalf]

If you mean, should JW pay state and fed taxes that are used, among other things, used to fund military budgets, yes, a hundred times yes, equality between citizens demands it, especially since the tax budget does not recognize indivudual contributions in its allocations.

[laklak]

We also get the usual troglyditic Alabummer and Kansas state legislators trying to force creationism into the school curriculum. They get shot down in the courts every single time they try it, but they are STRONG in Faith and girded by the Love of Gawd!

[Svartalf]

Well THey are not backed by the strength of Angel Moron I...

[Scot Dutchy]

Better keep your trap shut and let people think you're an eejit than open it up and prove them right.. The Catholic Church drew major revenue from collecting tithes, and did that from everybody but the nobility... actually, profit from tithes, and the naming of bishops always were big sources of clashes between authoritarian monarchs (French, English, and German emperors) and the papacy.

Not here. We were never a catholic country. It was voluntary as it was not a state religion. So put your brush away.

[Svartalf]

Actually, you used to be, until the 1500 somethings... maybe the Reform took quick and the Spanish netherlands stopped fairly quick to be a Catholic country, but don"t forget you were like everybody before Luther posted his silly theses on a cathedral door.

[JimC]

Someone should have nailed faeces to a cathedral door...

[Svartalf]

well, given all the evil shit Luther was denouncing, the nailing could as well have been of those.

[Hermit]

If collecting a tax and paying it out to churches is not considered "payment from the state treasury", then so be it.

Indeed. Church tax is not "money from the state treasury used to fund religious institutions." It is a tax, a.k.a. tithe, raised by the churches which have contracted the revenue authorities of the governments of the various German states to organise payment by their members on their behalf. Part of those taxes are even remitted to the state governments as payment for administrative costs incurred in the process. To say "church tax is money from the state treasury used to fund religious institutions" is false by omission.

Also, in Germany, if you declare yourself not a member of a church, so you don't have to pay the Church Tax, that means you cannot get married in a German church, or have your kid Baptized there. Ie. from the State's perspective, you are in and you pay, or if you don't pay, you're out of the church. LOL. Good way for the churches to use the machinery of the State to coerce people to keep paying a church tax for a church they don't go to.

In Germany religious people get married twice. Once in church and once at the Standesamt. Nonreligious people only get married once, and that is enough. They save on the church's wedding fee as well as the church tax without suffering any disadvantages. Since 1876 only the latter is recognised by the German government.

A similar arrangement applies to births. The only thing that counts is the birth certificate issued at the same Standesamt, where the existence of newly borns and their names are registered.

The machinery of state as a tool of coercion in favour of religious institutions does not exist. Peer pressure does. Or at least it did when I lived there. What the relatives, neighbours, work colleagues, acquaintances etc said and thought about you was important. Not being a catholic or protestant placed a significant social stigma on you 50 years ago.



NineBerry pointed out that I was wrong about Hitler's role regarding church tax. That law was created by the Weimar Republic in 1919. In a not so systematic form it even predates Bismarck's re-establishment of the German nation by almost 70 years.

[laklak]

Actual, honest-to-God theocracies aren't much fun. Spend some time in any of the Arab Gulf States, particularly Saudi Arabia or Kuwait, for an obect lesson. North Nigeria is anther garden spot. Places like Bahrain and Dubai are almost worse, in a way, because of the all-pervasive stench of hypocrisy. Russian hookers, shit-faced Saudis, and the morning call to prayer, what a combo. Not a one of us Westerners (or you Ozzie wannabes) have a fucking clue what living in a real theocratic state is like, our bitching and moaning are truly First World Problems.