Corbyn's Labour Party Antisemitism Row

[Jason]

The pertinent point is that Israel is open to all descendants of those who were driven from that land, irrespective of whether they still follow the religion of their forebears. Which is why Israel is the least religious state in the Middle East.

So the fervency of the belief behind the claim to be of the Jewish faith forms the basis of your metric of whether the officially "Jewish" state of Israel is an ethno-religious state or not. Noted.

I consider it from a Jewish standpoint, yet without fear or hatred. I believe that I can see what elements there are in it of vulgar sport, of common trade jealousy, of inherited prejudice, of religious intolerance, and also of pretended self-defence. I think the Jewish question is no more a social than a religious one - Theodor Herzl The Jewish State

Posted the wrong quote. This is the one I wanted.

I shall merely refer quite briefly to the Mohammedan pilgrimages to Mecca, the Catholic pilgrimages to Lourdes, and to many other spots whence men return comforted by their faith, and to the holy Hock at Trier. Thus we shall also create a center for the deep religious needs of our people. Our ministers will understand us first, and will be with us in this.

[Seabass]

Why do you support the most genocidal colonial nation to arise since the United States?

You forgot about Canada.

Canada 150 is a celebration of Indigenous genocide

The Audacity of Canada 150; a Lie Designed To Erase Our Legacy of Genocide

What Canada committed against First Nations was genocide. The UN should recognize it

‘Cultural genocide’? No, Canada committed regular genocide

It's ok though, no one will hold it against you. People only do that to the Merkins and Jews.

[Jason]

And categorizing Zionism, which is 100% religiously motivated, as 'secular' is absurd. What's your game Brian? Why do you support the most genocidal colonial nation to arise since the United States?

What a ridiculous thing to say.

Approximately 9,600 Palestinians and 1,251 Israelis and have been killed by someone from the other side since 2000.

I'd also invite you to consider, and delve into the question of, the living conditions the Palestinians have been kept in for this time period.

[Jason]

Why do you support the most genocidal colonial nation to arise since the United States?

You forgot about Canada.

Canada 150 is a celebration of Indigenous genocide

The Audacity of Canada 150; a Lie Designed To Erase Our Legacy of Genocide

What Canada committed against First Nations was genocide. The UN should recognize it

‘Cultural genocide’? No, Canada committed regular genocide

It's ok though, no one will hold it against you. People only do that to the Merkins and Jews.

So, like Rum, you appeal to a Tu Quoque line of reasoning? Very good.

Just because my country did it, or yours, or just because the Jewish people were victims of genocides, forced to live in ghettos, forcibly displaced - made stateless, doesn't justify what they're doing now.

[pErvinalia]

I find your outright denial of incontrovertible truth, i.e. Zionism is predicated upon the desire to found a Jewish state for the Jewish people, and only the Jewish people, very compelling SD.

Are you mental? It's an absolute fact that Israel was re-established as a homeland for the Jewish people. What I am denying is your counter-factual claim that it's about religion.

Are you mental?

I'm mental!

[Seabass]

Why do you support the most genocidal colonial nation to arise since the United States?

You forgot about Canada.

Canada 150 is a celebration of Indigenous genocide

The Audacity of Canada 150; a Lie Designed To Erase Our Legacy of Genocide

What Canada committed against First Nations was genocide. The UN should recognize it

‘Cultural genocide’? No, Canada committed regular genocide

It's ok though, no one will hold it against you. People only do that to the Merkins and Jews.

So, like Rum, you appeal to a Tu Quoque line of reasoning? Very good.

Just because my country did it, or yours, or just because the Jewish people were victims of genocides, forced to live in ghettos, forcibly displaced - made stateless, doesn't justify what they're doing now.

I justified nada, homie. I saw a claim that I consider to be incorrect and decided it warranted a response.

[Svartalf]

Beg pardon, but how can you possibly support an ethno-religious state like Israel as a freethinking, rationally minded, person?

Put aside that they've been committing genocide and stealing native land through their program of 'settlement building' since 1948, they've declared themselves the state of the 'Jewish' people exclusive to other creeds and ethnicity. They're not the free democratic state they pretend to be - they're like Iran, but with Judaism and a lot more genocide.

The leaders of Israel's government are not religious leaders, elections in Israel are not religious elections, political participation is not limited to religious parties, government policies are not specifically religious policies. Now, I'm not saying that religion isn't an important factor in Israeli life -- obviously that would be silly -- but it is not a nation moulded in the shape of the kind of autocratic theocracies it is so often compared with. No, the moral turpitude of Isreal's action with regards to it's own minority populations as well as towards it's Arab neighbours, is more secular than religious, that is; Israel's politicians so often fail at home and abroad not because it is a religious society but because it's political culture finds qualities such as forbearance, magnanimity and a willingness to compromise politically toxic.

The leaders of Israeli gummint are worse than religious leaders, they fauwn and brownnose at extremist, ultraorthodox religious leaders so they can get the vote of religious parties in parliament, in exchange for which they do the recent proclamation act , support the colonies and do all manners of other atrocities aimed at supporting the hassidim and other extemist Jewish factions, they are not religious leaders, they are their yes men and lackeys.

[Svartalf]

Beg pardon, but how can you possibly support an ethno-religious state like Israel as a freethinking, rationally minded, person?

Put aside that they've been committing genocide and stealing native land through their program of 'settlement building' since 1948, they've declared themselves the state of the 'Jewish' people exclusive to other creeds and ethnicity. They're not the free democratic state they pretend to be - they're like Iran, but with Judaism and a lot more genocide.

I support the right of Israel to exist and its foundation, in part because I have links to people who suffered in Germany in the 30s and 40s.

I don't support their policies regarding the Palestinians.

I don't, their foundation is in violence and theft. If I must support a Jewish state, I'll support the State of Jewidh Birobizhan, even if it's East of Eden on the Chinese border.

[JimC]

Whether people think that the state of Israel should or should not exist is utterly irrelevant. They exist, they are militarily powerful, they have nukes and the support of the US, and they are not going quietly. Pragmatically, the hope would be for a change in US policy with some pressure applied, and a re-alignment of Israel's internal politics somewhat to the left, with a desire for negotiation with the Palestinians. A slim hope, I suspect, but it seems utterly pointless to make arguments on the basis that Israel should not exist...

[Svartalf]

well, they have an advantage, even if they infuriate Iran or Pakistan into using an atomic bomb, Jerusalem is safe, they'd never bomb al Qods

[Jason]

Whether people think that the state of Israel should or should not exist is utterly irrelevant. They exist, they are militarily powerful, they have nukes and the support of the US, and they are not going quietly. Pragmatically, the hope would be for a change in US policy with some pressure applied, and a re-alignment of Israel's internal politics somewhat to the left, with a desire for negotiation with the Palestinians. A slim hope, I suspect, but it seems utterly pointless to make arguments on the basis that Israel should not exist...

My hope is for the democratic single-state solution to be realized, but that way lies in the direction of secularism - the opposite of declaring Israel an enthno-religiously 'Jewish' state. As you say, I can only hope that Israeli politics swing back to the left in time for 2019. This administration seems bent on continuing the slow annexation of the West Bank pursuant to its plan to sap the Palestinian position - their right wing agenda is bent on the annexation of Palestinian land and the disenfranchisement / forcible removal of the Palestinian people.

[Strontium Dog]

Are you mental? It's an absolute fact that the organizing principle of the Zionist movement is Judaism, and has been since before Theodor Herzl wrote his papers. How is that not about religion?

You can't just make stuff up and then claim it's an absolute fact. That's not how it works.

Jewishness is not the same as Judaism, any more than being Italian is the same as being Catholic.

[Jason]

Are you mental? It's an absolute fact that the organizing principle of the Zionist movement is Judaism, and has been since before Theodor Herzl wrote his papers. How is that not about religion?

You can't just make stuff up and then claim it's an absolute fact. That's not how it works.

Jewishness is not the same as Judaism, any more than being Italian is the same as being Catholic.

Apples/Oranges.

What you want to say is that being Israeli isn't the same thing as being Jewish, but that's patently not the case.

[laklak]

I wouldn't want to be in the lead Arab tank column trying to push the IDF into the sea, that's for fucking sure.

[pErvinalia]

The Arabs should be doing everything they can to become friends of the Chinese. Much brighter future than relying on the US to do much good by them.