Corbyn's Labour Party Antisemitism Row

[Svartalf]

Well, I would not be surprised if the people who put An Alarc'h to music had borrowed the Twa Corbies tune, the song is from a 18th century collection, but I doubt the guy who collected it, if he indeed collected it rather than wrote it from whole cloth, put any musical indications with it.

[Scot Dutchy]

That is folk music. Pinch and there.

[Svartalf]

folk music is a lot richer than you say, instrumentals used to be highly ornamented, if only to display the player's skill... when it's songs, of course, the accompaniment can be simpler.

[Brian Peacock]

oh, that... yeah, I hear it makes you mad as well as blind

Who said that? B-)

[Rum]

There is actually a serious issue here (not the one Crumple started with). There is a struggle going on in the Labour Party about anti semitism. It is argued by those who are challenging Corbyn, that the party is anti semitic because (in part) it refuses to adopt a definition of the term that they support - as do many.

Corbyn supporters, as well as those who oppose Israel's policy regarding the Palestinians say that the definition being demanded tends to include any criticism of Israel (and its actions) as anti semitic. Personally I think, as a supporter of Israel but in strong disagreement of their approach to Palestinians that these people have a point.

The issue takes a further little twist with the Israel supporters saying that an 'oppressed' minority have the right to define their own wording and that a political party does not.

It is an argument we have had here ad finitum at times as I recall. Personally I support Corbin's approach.

There are those who say that this is a trojan horse issue and that the supporters of this fuss are trying to oust him. I would be very surprised indeed if they managed to.

[Jason]

Beg pardon, but how can you possibly support an ethno-religious state like Israel as a freethinking, rationally minded, person?

Put aside that they've been committing genocide and stealing native land through their program of 'settlement building' since 1948, they've declared themselves the state of the 'Jewish' people exclusive to other creeds and ethnicity. They're not the free democratic state they pretend to be - they're like Iran, but with Judaism and a lot more genocide.

[Jason]

https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opini ... 53850.html

[Brian Peacock]

Beg pardon, but how can you possibly support an ethno-religious state like Israel as a freethinking, rationally minded, person?

Put aside that they've been committing genocide and stealing native land through their program of 'settlement building' since 1948, they've declared themselves the state of the 'Jewish' people exclusive to other creeds and ethnicity. They're not the free democratic state they pretend to be - they're like Iran, but with Judaism and a lot more genocide.

The leaders of Israel's government are not religious leaders, elections in Israel are not religious elections, political participation is not limited to religious parties, government policies are not specifically religious policies. Now, I'm not saying that religion isn't an important factor in Israeli life -- obviously that would be silly -- but it is not a nation moulded in the shape of the kind of autocratic theocracies it is so often compared with. No, the moral turpitude of Isreal's action with regards to it's own minority populations as well as towards it's Arab neighbours, is more secular than religious, that is; Israel's politicians so often fail at home and abroad not because it is a religious society but because it's political culture finds qualities such as forbearance, magnanimity and a willingness to compromise politically toxic.

[Jason]

Dude, they just declared Israel as a Jewish state... no religious leaders? Perhaps they haven't invented the titles yet.

[Rum]

Beg pardon, but how can you possibly support an ethno-religious state like Israel as a freethinking, rationally minded, person?

Put aside that they've been committing genocide and stealing native land through their program of 'settlement building' since 1948, they've declared themselves the state of the 'Jewish' people exclusive to other creeds and ethnicity. They're not the free democratic state they pretend to be - they're like Iran, but with Judaism and a lot more genocide.

I support the right of Israel to exist and its foundation, in part because I have links to people who suffered in Germany in the 30s and 40s.

I don't support their policies regarding the Palestinians.

[Jason]

And categorizing Zionism, which is 100% religiously motivated, as 'secular' is absurd. What's your game Brian? Why do you support the most genocidal colonial nation to arise since the United States?

[Jason]

Beg pardon, but how can you possibly support an ethno-religious state like Israel as a freethinking, rationally minded, person?

Put aside that they've been committing genocide and stealing native land through their program of 'settlement building' since 1948, they've declared themselves the state of the 'Jewish' people exclusive to other creeds and ethnicity. They're not the free democratic state they pretend to be - they're like Iran, but with Judaism and a lot more genocide.

I support the right of Israel to exist and its foundation, in part because I have links to people who suffered in Germany in the 30s and 40s.

I don't support their policies regarding the Palestinians.

Tell me, please, what you think the foundations of the state of Israel are that makes them legitimate and worthy of your support.

[Rum]

No thanks.

[Brian Peacock]

And categorizing Zionism, which is 100% religiously motivated, as 'secular' is absurd. What's your game Brian? Why do you support the most genocidal colonial nation to arise since the United States?

I don't recognise your characterisation of my views about Israel. I disagree strongly and object to a lot of what Israel gets up to as well as finding the reflexive responsibility shifting which successive administrations have indulged in quite appalling. I don't criticise Israel because it's a self-declared Jewish state, I criticise it because or when, in my view, it's action warrant criticism and censure. Similarly I don't criticise and object to al-Qaeda because they're Muslim, or the KKK because they're Christian - which is just to say that my objections to organised religion are a separate matter and stand on their own account.

[Strontium Dog]

And categorizing Zionism, which is 100% religiously motivated, as 'secular' is absurd.

It's not "religiously motivated" at all. Israel has only been re-established for 70 years and they've already had at least three atheist Prime Ministers ffs. Find me another modern democracy that has had as many.