Is poverty a moral failing...

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Re: Is poverty a moral failing...

Post by Forty Two » Thu Dec 08, 2016 2:42 pm

Svartalf wrote:neoliberalism in anglo country is the direct heir of the puritan work ethic, ergo the wealthy are 'blessed' and the poor are tuh Eebil
The Anglos threw the Puritans out of England.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Is poverty a moral failing...

Post by Forty Two » Thu Dec 08, 2016 2:44 pm

pErvin wrote:
Hermit wrote:Moral opprobrium concerning the unemployed preceded neoliberalism by a long shot.
So what? That says nothing about whether neoliberalism explains moral opprobrium of the poor in today's times.
There is very little "moral" opprobrium against the poor today. In fact, there is far less now - at least in the US - opprobrium about being poor than ever before. Nowadays, a rising number of people view poverty as some sort of unfairness, and that people who are poor should actually pay less for things. If you asked 100 people at random whether poor people should pay less for food at restaurants and supermarkets than rich people, I bet nearly half would answer "yes."
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Is poverty a moral failing...

Post by Brian Peacock » Thu Dec 08, 2016 2:49 pm

I bet if you asked 100 people at random whether rich people should pay less tax as a proportion of their income than the poor most would say "no" as well. So how can we ensure this kind of moral optimisation in society, where the rich pay more tax and the poor paying less for food?
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Re: Is poverty a moral failing...

Post by Jason » Thu Dec 08, 2016 3:34 pm

In Islam there is a flat tax levied on the income of all working Muslims that goes directly toward feeding and housing the poor. Civilized that is. :tea:

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Re: Is poverty a moral failing...

Post by Svartalf » Thu Dec 08, 2016 3:48 pm

Forty Two wrote:
Svartalf wrote:neoliberalism in anglo country is the direct heir of the puritan work ethic, ergo the wealthy are 'blessed' and the poor are tuh Eebil
The Anglos threw the Puritans out of England.
yet they are still carrying on and out much of the puritan ideology.
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Re: Is poverty a moral failing...

Post by Forty Two » Thu Dec 08, 2016 3:48 pm

Brian Peacock wrote:I bet if you asked 100 people at random whether rich people should pay less tax as a proportion of their income than the poor most would say "no" as well. So how can we ensure this kind of moral optimisation in society, where the rich pay more tax and the poor paying less for food?
That's not moral optimization. Why should the price of a hamburger depend on the income or wealth of the consumer?

Should the poor pay an income-based amount for charter boats, too? Mercedes cars? 1,000 square meter homes? Rental apartments?

I mean, if a person is a millionaire, but wants to live frugally, is it "moral optimization" to require him to pay $1200 a month for an apartment that a person making, say $50,000 a year, gets for $600 per month? How is that either moral or an optimization?
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Is poverty a moral failing...

Post by Forty Two » Thu Dec 08, 2016 3:50 pm

Śiva wrote:In Islam there is a flat tax levied on the income of all working Muslims that goes directly toward feeding and housing the poor. Civilized that is. :tea:
In Islam, you say? There is a tax levied by the religion?
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Is poverty a moral failing...

Post by Jason » Thu Dec 08, 2016 3:54 pm

Forty Two wrote:
Śiva wrote:In Islam there is a flat tax levied on the income of all working Muslims that goes directly toward feeding and housing the poor. Civilized that is. :tea:
In Islam, you say? There is a tax levied by the religion?
Yep. It's called "Zakat".

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Re: Is poverty a moral failing...

Post by Forty Two » Thu Dec 08, 2016 4:00 pm

Śiva wrote:
Forty Two wrote:
Śiva wrote:In Islam there is a flat tax levied on the income of all working Muslims that goes directly toward feeding and housing the poor. Civilized that is. :tea:
In Islam, you say? There is a tax levied by the religion?
Yep. It's called "Zakat".
It's not a tax if it's like a tithe. It's a voluntary payment. That's no different than saying "In Christianity, people are called upon to give alms to the poor..."
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Is poverty a moral failing...

Post by cronus » Thu Dec 08, 2016 4:15 pm

Forty Two wrote:
Śiva wrote:
Forty Two wrote:
Śiva wrote:In Islam there is a flat tax levied on the income of all working Muslims that goes directly toward feeding and housing the poor. Civilized that is. :tea:
In Islam, you say? There is a tax levied by the religion?
Yep. It's called "Zakat".
It's not a tax if it's like a tithe. It's a voluntary payment. That's no different than saying "In Christianity, people are called upon to give alms to the poor..."
Except for the missing head in cases of none payment. :coffee:
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Re: Is poverty a moral failing...

Post by Jason » Thu Dec 08, 2016 4:15 pm

Well it might be voluntary in the same way being a Muslim at all is voluntary. It's one of the 'five pillars of Islam' - the five things you have to do to call yourself a Muslim.

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Re: Is poverty a moral failing...

Post by Hermit » Thu Dec 08, 2016 11:28 pm

Śiva wrote:In Islam there is a flat tax levied on the income of all working Muslims that goes directly toward feeding and housing the poor. Civilized that is. :tea:
In most Muslim nations the zakat is voluntary. Here is the complete list of countries where it is mandatory: Libya, Malaysia, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, and Yemen. Name one where it actually works.
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Re: Is poverty a moral failing...

Post by Jason » Fri Dec 09, 2016 1:02 am

It is a religious obligation if you're a Muslim. If you opt out of it you're not a Muslim.

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Re: Is poverty a moral failing...

Post by Hermit » Fri Dec 09, 2016 1:46 am

Śiva wrote:It is a religious obligation if you're a Muslim. If you opt out of it you're not a Muslim.
Fine, but again: Name one predominantly Muslim nation where it actually works.
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Re: Is poverty a moral failing...

Post by Forty Two » Fri Dec 09, 2016 6:46 pm

Śiva wrote:Well it might be voluntary in the same way being a Muslim at all is voluntary. It's one of the 'five pillars of Islam' - the five things you have to do to call yourself a Muslim.
Exactly, being a Muslim at all SHOULD be voluntary. If there is any policy or practice of a church or mosque such that being a certain religion is not voluntary, than that religion is, IMO, a shit religion.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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