Freee market useless on its own

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Tero
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Freee market useless on its own

Post by Tero » Fri Aug 28, 2015 8:51 pm

It needs a federal government, a military, universities and BIG MONEY from tax payers to push forward. No improved Li battery will come from industry alone.

Quite often the application of a university funded invention can be further patented as far its use for specific products. (By the university inventor or someone else). That means more than 50% of the funding to get the product invented and made came from tax payers. Because there was nothing to go forward from until the basic research was published.

This all came up in a Seth rant. I thought my Khorana example was pretty good but not sure Seth understood it. But beyond Seth, discuss the claim.
Seth wrote:
Tero wrote:You are confusing anything that does not make quick buck with Marxism.

Look up NSF funding. See how much goes to MIT, a private college.
Hey, I'm all for privately-funded science paid for by those who value such things so long as its voluntary and out of their own pockets and not somebody else's, particularly by using the expedient of government force to obtain it through taxation.
here
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Re: Freee market useless on its own

Post by Seth » Sat Aug 29, 2015 8:27 am

Tero wrote:It needs a federal government, a military, universities and BIG MONEY from tax payers to push forward. No improved Li battery will come from industry alone.
Sure it will, when and if there is sufficient demand for it from consumers. Which of course is exactly what happened. It's pure happenstance if some publicly-funded university tenured researcher with his snout in the public trough comes up with something interesting or useful that is later turned into a marketable device by private industry and the forces of the free market. Plenty of research gets done by industry, and an improved battery will come to be because there is a profit motive involved.
Quite often the application of a university funded invention can be further patented as far its use for specific products. (By the university inventor or someone else). That means more than 50% of the funding to get the product invented and made came from tax payers. Because there was nothing to go forward from until the basic research was published.
And that justifies thieving money from unwilling participants in your science experiment how, exactly? If there's a need in the marketplace, the market will eventually supply that need. Government-funded university research is just a featherbedding waste of money better spent educating students in something other than Marxist propaganda.

"Public University" and "research" should be mutually exclusive terms. We pay public universities to educate students, not engage in research at the expense of public education. Private universities can do as they please with the money they get from willing parents and donors, but taxpayer-funded universities have an obligation to spend public money educating students, and only educating students, not funding private research or football teams.

Then again, there should be no "public universities" at all anyway. Every university should be private, and privately funded with exactly zero taxpayer money being collected to pay for it. If you want a higher education, YOU pay for it, or you ask someone to contribute to paying for it and convince them that you are worthy of their investment. Public universities have become Marxist indoctrination camps that have no academic standards at all and whose "diplomas" are as worthless as the propaganda that tenured leftist professors (as if there are any non-Marxist tenured professors) hand out every day.

University is and should be a privilege reserved for the best of the best of our students who have worked their asses off for their entire school careers and have demonstrated the scholarship and drive necessary to make it worth investing in giving them a higher education. College education is not, nor should it ever be an entitlement nor should it be easy to get a diploma. Otherwise, the whole system becomes as utterly worthless as a Russian medical school education, which won't get you a job cleaning bedpans in any US hospital.
This all came up in a Seth rant. I thought my Khorana example was pretty good but not sure Seth understood it. But beyond Seth, discuss the claim.
I understand it just fine. I just reject your premises as unfounded, unsupported, and fallacious.

The government has no business dunning taxpayers to pay for anyone's college education, much less for research.

If the free market cannot support the necessary research, then the research is not necessary.
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Re: Freee market useless on its own

Post by JimC » Sat Aug 29, 2015 9:20 am

Seth wrote:

f the free market cannot support the necessary research, then the research is not necessary.
You have just dismissed 90% of the scientific breakthroughs of the last 500 years... :roll:
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Re: Freee market useless on its own

Post by Seth » Sat Aug 29, 2015 10:25 am

JimC wrote:
Seth wrote:

f the free market cannot support the necessary research, then the research is not necessary.
You have just dismissed 90% of the scientific breakthroughs of the last 500 years... :roll:
No, I'm just saying that those scientific breakthroughs would have occurred without government tax money.
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Re: Freee market useless on its own

Post by mistermack » Sat Aug 29, 2015 12:01 pm

The Soviet Union put the first satellite in space. They put the first man is space.
Atom bombs and Hydrogen bombs all developed out of taxpayer funded research.
They didn't research the atom because of the market for bombs.

The markets are good at producing endless varieties of stuff that's already been invented, but not good at inventing new stuff.

Even facebook proves that. Until it was invented, there was no market for facebook. It created it's own market. And that's true of lots of inventions like the pc and the internet.
If you relied on market forces to create inventions, you'd still be be back in the 1920s.
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Re: Freee market useless on its own

Post by Ian » Sat Aug 29, 2015 12:17 pm

Seth wrote:
JimC wrote:
Seth wrote:

f the free market cannot support the necessary research, then the research is not necessary.
You have just dismissed 90% of the scientific breakthroughs of the last 500 years... :roll:
No, I'm just saying that those scientific breakthroughs would have occurred without government tax money.
You are MONUMENTALLY wrong about that one. Holy Zeus almighty are you wrong.

Check out the list of technologies created in the history of DARPA alone. It's staggering. And most of them created without any market applications in mind.

G'head and dare me to produce a list. I dare ya. Or, just do a little research.

Leave all progress up to the private sector, and some things simply don't get invented.

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Re: Freee market useless on its own

Post by Tero » Sat Aug 29, 2015 4:14 pm

When Gubment invents these spectacular things, such as gene splicing, it could pass laws limiting its use. We could ban Monsanto using it for GM crops. I would, actually. I would permit them in green houses only. Mammal genes would require a regulatory board.

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Re: Freee market useless on its own

Post by rainbow » Sat Aug 29, 2015 6:04 pm

Seth wrote:
JimC wrote:
Seth wrote:

f the free market cannot support the necessary research, then the research is not necessary.
You have just dismissed 90% of the scientific breakthroughs of the last 500 years... :roll:
No, I'm just saying that those scientific breakthroughs would have occurred without government tax money.
Even you don't believe this drivel. :bored:
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Re: Freee market useless on its own

Post by Svartalf » Sat Aug 29, 2015 6:17 pm

Indeed and he can't, let's just see what came from a marketless impulse like the space conquest... on a free market dime, we would still be watching the moon, and probably using cabinet sized computers, and do without teflon and a lot of advanced plastics and materials (say, carbon fiber?), without the internet (that's pure DARPA, you remember that, right?), without portable phones, without any systems relying on satellites (like GPS) and flatscreen TVs would be the stuff of science fiction...
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Re: Freee market useless on its own

Post by cronus » Sat Aug 29, 2015 6:35 pm

These things could have been invented faster without the interference of government? no one has a rewind and see machine to say otherwise? What we do know is that private enterprise introduces cost efficiencies that are absent in the public sector. :read:
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Re: Freee market useless on its own

Post by cronus » Sat Aug 29, 2015 6:35 pm

These things could have been invented faster without the interference of government? no one has a rewind and see machine to say otherwise? What we do know is that private enterprise introduces cost efficiencies that are absent in the public sector. :read:
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Re: Freee market useless on its own

Post by Svartalf » Sat Aug 29, 2015 6:42 pm

We have a rewind and see machine called 'history', it says gummint interference beat free market since it got the stuff invented before free market could get it out on its own... as for it ever being invented if gummint hadn't intervened, I'd guess that by free market dynamics alone we'd still be using dial phones...
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Re: Freee market useless on its own

Post by Ian » Sat Aug 29, 2015 6:56 pm

Technology progresses fastest when both the public and private sectors are able to develop with little interference. They benefit each other. Time and time again, private industry piggybacks on top of something created by a government project with solely military or scientific goals in mind. And those public developers benefit by making use of the fast, competitive R&D done within the private sector for profit goals.

To say one side is simply better than the other is to miss the point. Both sides do certain things that would never be done by the other. They're a yin/yang relationship.

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Re: Freee market useless on its own

Post by Seth » Sat Aug 29, 2015 9:51 pm

mistermack wrote:The Soviet Union put the first satellite in space. They put the first man is space.
Atom bombs and Hydrogen bombs all developed out of taxpayer funded research.
They didn't research the atom because of the market for bombs.
And the planet would be far better off if government had never invested taxpayer money in developing nuclear weapons, wouldn't it?
The markets are good at producing endless varieties of stuff that's already been invented, but not good at inventing new stuff.
Well, that's just nonsense. Alexander Bell invented many things for which there was no market, at his own expense, which we use every day everywhere.
Even facebook proves that. Until it was invented, there was no market for facebook. It created it's own market. And that's true of lots of inventions like the pc and the internet.
If you relied on market forces to create inventions, you'd still be be back in the 1920s.
And who created Facebook and with whose money did he create it? Mark Zuckerberg and his own.

Go figure.
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Re: Freee market useless on its own

Post by Seth » Sat Aug 29, 2015 9:59 pm

Ian wrote:
Seth wrote:
JimC wrote:
Seth wrote:

f the free market cannot support the necessary research, then the research is not necessary.
You have just dismissed 90% of the scientific breakthroughs of the last 500 years... :roll:
No, I'm just saying that those scientific breakthroughs would have occurred without government tax money.
You are MONUMENTALLY wrong about that one. Holy Zeus almighty are you wrong.

Check out the list of technologies created in the history of DARPA alone. It's staggering. And most of them created without any market applications in mind.

G'head and dare me to produce a list. I dare ya. Or, just do a little research.

Leave all progress up to the private sector, and some things simply don't get invented.
Produce any list you want and I can tell you that every single thing "invented" by government would have been invented by somebody other than government if there was a need for it in the marketplace. There's not a damned thing government has ever done that's better or more efficient or less costly than what the free market is capable of. DARPA is one example of egregious government waste that has done more to kill people on this planet than most anything else. "The Internet" would have been "invented" by someone, perhaps Al Gore, because the invention of computers and the need for them to communicate with one another ensured it would happen. And what drove the invention of the Internet was NOT DARPA, it "invented" nothing more than the digital equivalent of the already-existing Bell-invented telephone network, which came into being without taxpayer money, because somebody invented the telegraph, without tax money, because somebody invented Morse Code via mirrors without government money, which was invented because somebody figured out how to wave flags at somebody else, without government tax money.

The notion that nothing would get invented without government involvement or tax money is a specious and entirely unprovable, and largely disproven bit of government propaganda foisted off on gullible taxpayers because government wants to CONTROL such things...which was DARPA's intent, not because it couldn't be done without government.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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