Debunk the Teleological Argument for God

[Coito ergo sum]

Teleological Argument, also known as the Watchmaker Hypothesis. Proposed by Thomas Aquinas, who created the 5 proofs of God. This argument states that a complex object, like a watch, appears to be designed, and because it is unlikely that chance created it, some intelligence must have. They translate that to the universe, and therefore, God exists.

This argument never resonated with me. Mainly because it's called the watchmaker hypothesis. The choice of a timepiece as the complex argument - a watch needs a watchmaker.

If the teleological argument were of any worth, I would think it would be persuasive enough to call it the "rockmaker hypothesis" or the "hydrogen maker hypothesis." I think it speaks to the fact that people look at rocks as naturally created, without any intelligent or divine intervention, that renders the teleological argument unpersuasive. They say "see, here is this contraption that we know requires someone to make it; therefore, everything requires someone to make it." If that's true, why use a watch? Why not a rock?

It's like the story used to illustrate this by creationists - if you walk across a field and see a watch, you know that someone made that watch. Well, there are rocks in the field to, and we don't think anyone made them. Ergo, it does not necessarily follow that complex things in the universe are made by intelligent beings.

Does that work to debunk it? Or, are there any other debunks for the teleological argument?

[mistermack]

I dunno, why not go for the bleedin obvious.
When did a watch ever give birth?
I know what made me. My parents.
You see a watch, you know someone made it. You see a human, you know that they are the result of sexual reproduction.
Comparing watches to humans is therefore stupid. That also applies to the Universe.
Everything has a previous history.
You can look, and tell that a watch had a maker. Man made things are mostly pretty obvious.
But complex things daily grow from simple ingredients naturally. You can look at anything else, and work out where it came from. Rocks, trees, moons, stars, all understood and explained by previous history.

The big bang is the only thing so far unexplained by previous history.
So it's the god of the gaps. No explanation, chuck in god.

I thought Thomas Aquinas was supposed to be a thinker. But of course, he came before Darwin, so you can't be too hard on him.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

You come upon a message written in the sand on a beach. You don't see a designer, but you there has to be one because the words are intelligently designed.

You come off looking like an ass because you know the words are words because you've been trained to see patterns in the shapes. You also skipped the fact that there are billions of grains of sand on the beach, beautifully "designed" to be beach sand. There's no sign of designer, and no reason think there is one.

[Coito ergo sum]

But...what are the odds that all those grains of sand would be organized together in just that order....it's astronomical!

[mistermack]

What kind of god would create the entire Sahara desert, just for the benefit of the bacteria living on one grain of sand?
Because even that is not enough of a contrast, of creating the entire Universe, just for a home for humans.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

But...what are the odds that all those grains of sand would be organized together in just that order....it's astronomical!

The fact that they ARE gathered together in that organization would indicated a high probability that they could.

[Coito ergo sum]

What kind of god would create the entire Sahara desert, just for the benefit of the bacteria living on one grain of sand?
Because even that is not enough of a contrast, of creating the entire Universe, just for a home for humans.

I think the Earth was made for beetles.

[Coito ergo sum]

But...what are the odds that all those grains of sand would be organized together in just that order....it's astronomical!

The fact that they ARE gathered together in that organization would indicated a high probability that they could.

Yeah, but the odds of them coming together in just that particular order, and not some other order, are pretty long.

[mistermack]

But...what are the odds that all those grains of sand would be organized together in just that order....it's astronomical!

The fact that they ARE gathered together in that organization would indicated a high probability that they could.

Yeah, but the odds of them coming together in just that particular order, and not some other order, are pretty long.

So if you win the biggest lottery, odds of 500,000,000 to one, that means it was "meant" to be you ?
Of course not. There were 500 million ways the balls could come out. But they HAD to come out in one way, and that just happened to be you. There were 499,999,999 losing tickets.

Similarly, there were billions or gazillions of ways that the Universe could have turned out.
It happened to be this way. It had to come out one way or another. There were gazillions of losing universe layouts that never happened.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

But...what are the odds that all those grains of sand would be organized together in just that order....it's astronomical!

The fact that they ARE gathered together in that organization would indicated a high probability that they could.

Yeah, but the odds of them coming together in just that particular order, and not some other order, are pretty long.

Until you notice there's more than one beach, of course.

[Thumpalumpacus]

The retina.

[Coito ergo sum]

But...what are the odds that all those grains of sand would be organized together in just that order....it's astronomical!

The fact that they ARE gathered together in that organization would indicated a high probability that they could.

Yeah, but the odds of them coming together in just that particular order, and not some other order, are pretty long.

Until you notice there's more than one beach, of course.

What are the odds of all the beaches being arranged just so? Couldn't happen by chance....

[Coito ergo sum]

But...what are the odds that all those grains of sand would be organized together in just that order....it's astronomical!

The fact that they ARE gathered together in that organization would indicated a high probability that they could.

Yeah, but the odds of them coming together in just that particular order, and not some other order, are pretty long.

So if you win the biggest lottery, odds of 500,000,000 to one, that means it was "meant" to be you ?
Of course not. There were 500 million ways the balls could come out. But they HAD to come out in one way, and that just happened to be you. There were 499,999,999 losing tickets.

Similarly, there were billions or gazillions of ways that the Universe could have turned out.
It happened to be this way. It had to come out one way or another. There were gazillions of losing universe layouts that never happened.

Talk to any lottery winner. They seem to think god had something to do with it.

[mistermack]

Talk to any lottery winner. They seem to think god had something to do with it.

And yet the odd thing is that you don't get 499,999,999 losers blaming god. Strange.

[Coito ergo sum]

Talk to any lottery winner. They seem to think god had something to do with it.

And yet the odd thing is that you don't get 499,999,999 losers blaming god. Strange.

Maybe they should thank him. Money is the root of all evil, therefore losing the lottery is like being delivered from evil.