A secular debate about adultery

[lordpasternack]

But maybe someday we'll feel differently. If so, we need to be able to talk about it and come to a new agreement.

Talking is the key. It's still such a taboo to discuss sex for many people, even with their partner/husband/wife. As soon as that wall is broken down, and conversations can be had, everyone involved gets a better understanding.

It's when things happen behind backs that the problems start.

Word.

A while back on RD.net there was some discussion about this following the Tiger Woods furore. I made a comment in response to someone on this general topic:

My question is a simple point of morality. Is a society that values honesty, integrity, and ethical conduct a society that is bad?

Of course not - but part of that honesty should involve being honest about the fact that we are not an absolutely sexually monogamous species, but that we are also prone to sexual possessiveness and jealousy - and what can be done about that? Instead of simply demonising the former instinct, trying to brush it under the carpet, and then indulging the latter instinct when things don't work out to the monogamous ideal.

And if there was an ethos of honesty and openness about that, then I suspect it would remove some of the pressure that moves people to be dishonest in this way in the first place.

I cast you back to the analogy I made with respect to a son or daughter impugning their parents' 'honour' by having premarital sex after vowing not to. They made vows to behave differently, they might genuinely have been very dishonest about their movements, they might have deeply hurt and offended their parents, and they might have known that they'd get that reaction if they were discovered. Therefore they lack in integrity and ethics in some ways, right?

Do you take some issue with that particular analogy?

http://richarddawkins.net/videos/4867-b ... ent_429274

[.Morticia.]

But would/should there be jealousy? Can you imagine a future when people don't feel 'ownership' of companions and jealousy is unheard of.

Myself, why would I feel hurt that someone I love loves someone else too? If they are happy that's what counts to me. ( and not being abusive, but that's a given )

Further and apropos of nothing , in some states in the US adultery is illegal.

North AmericaIn the United States, laws vary from state to state. In those states where adultery is still on the statute book (although rarely prosecuted), penalties vary from life sentence (Michigan),[54] to a fine of $10 (Maryland), to a Class I felony (Wisconsin).[55] In the U.S. Military, adultery is a potential court-martial offense.[16] The enforceability of adultery laws in the United States is unclear following Supreme Court decisions since 1965 relating to privacy and sexual intimacy of consenting adults.[56] However, occasional prosecutions do occur.[57]

( from wiki )

[hadespussercats]

But would/should there be jealousy? Can you imagine a future when people don't feel 'ownership' of companions and jealousy is unheard of.

Myself, why would I feel hurt that someone I love loves someone else too? If they are happy that's what counts to me. ( and not being abusive, but that's a given )

Further and apropos of nothing , in some states in the US adultery is illegal.

North AmericaIn the United States, laws vary from state to state. In those states where adultery is still on the statute book (although rarely prosecuted), penalties vary from life sentence (Michigan),[54] to a fine of $10 (Maryland), to a Class I felony (Wisconsin).[55] In the U.S. Military, adultery is a potential court-martial offense.[16] The enforceability of adultery laws in the United States is unclear following Supreme Court decisions since 1965 relating to privacy and sexual intimacy of consenting adults.[56] However, occasional prosecutions do occur.[57]

( from wiki )

Whether or not there should be jealousy isn't the issue for me. Jealousy exists, and my husband and I have chosen our way of dealing with it. We want to be exclusive-- it makes each of us feel cherished and special to be exclusive (and I'm not putting words in my husband's mouth here-- we've talked extensively about this over the years.)

If you feel differently, there's nothing better or worse about your point of view-- I assume you seek partners who feel the same way. Even if you don't, it's not any of my business (For that reason, I have real issues with adultery laws.)

[hadespussercats]

But maybe someday we'll feel differently. If so, we need to be able to talk about it and come to a new agreement.

Talking is the key. It's still such a taboo to discuss sex for many people, even with their partner/husband/wife. As soon as that wall is broken down, and conversations can be had, everyone involved gets a better understanding.

It's when things happen behind backs that the problems start.

Word.

A while back on RD.net there was some discussion about this following the Tiger Woods furore. I made a comment in response to someone on this general topic:

My question is a simple point of morality. Is a society that values honesty, integrity, and ethical conduct a society that is bad?

Of course not - but part of that honesty should involve being honest about the fact that we are not an absolutely sexually monogamous species, but that we are also prone to sexual possessiveness and jealousy - and what can be done about that? Instead of simply demonising the former instinct, trying to brush it under the carpet, and then indulging the latter instinct when things don't work out to the monogamous ideal.

And if there was an ethos of honesty and openness about that, then I suspect it would remove some of the pressure that moves people to be dishonest in this way in the first place.

I cast you back to the analogy I made with respect to a son or daughter impugning their parents' 'honour' by having premarital sex after vowing not to. They made vows to behave differently, they might genuinely have been very dishonest about their movements, they might have deeply hurt and offended their parents, and they might have known that they'd get that reaction if they were discovered. Therefore they lack in integrity and ethics in some ways, right?

Do you take some issue with that particular analogy?

http://richarddawkins.net/videos/4867-b ... ent_429274

Well, in the case of children taking chastity vows to please their parents, I have a strong suspicion they might be under undue emotional and parental pressure to do so, and that breaking a vow made under that kind of pressure, acting secretively, etc., isn't necessarily indicative of a lack of integrity.

Consenting adults should be able to arrive at their own conclusions/agreements about sexual behavior, privately. Any societal strictures that get in the way of open, honest discourse between sexual or soon-to-be-sexual partners is a big problem, both to public health and to any society that values free will.

[lordpasternack]

And another comment from them there days:

If people do not wish to remain faithful, why get married which involves making a promise to commit to one person?

Yes, and if people in American high schools do not wish to remain virgins before marriage, why promise to commit to that in the first place?

The fact of the matter is that people make commitments, promises, sign contracts, that they later have half a mind to want to retract, or they find difficult to honour - perhaps because the promise made was unbeknown to them at the time of commitment, quite unrealistic for them in the first place. There may be very real pressures not to be upfront and honest about any such difficulty or change of heart.

And there's the simple fact that people change, relationships change, during the course of a marriage...

http://richarddawkins.net/videos/4867-b ... ent_429010

I do agree of course that there is a qualitative difference between adolescents making vows of chastity naively and probably under pressure from authority, and then choosing having a sex life over having no sex life at all - and presumably equal sexual partners making vows or agreements between themselves in some way, and either one of them later choosing to have sex with another or others. But there are some parallels there, and I do find it a consciousness-raising experience to size them up together.

Oh, and I've shagged married and engaged men. Prejudice declared.

[.Morticia.]

But would/should there be jealousy? Can you imagine a future when people don't feel 'ownership' of companions and jealousy is unheard of.

Myself, why would I feel hurt that someone I love loves someone else too? If they are happy that's what counts to me. ( and not being abusive, but that's a given )

Further and apropos of nothing , in some states in the US adultery is illegal.

North AmericaIn the United States, laws vary from state to state. In those states where adultery is still on the statute book (although rarely prosecuted), penalties vary from life sentence (Michigan),[54] to a fine of $10 (Maryland), to a Class I felony (Wisconsin).[55] In the U.S. Military, adultery is a potential court-martial offense.[16] The enforceability of adultery laws in the United States is unclear following Supreme Court decisions since 1965 relating to privacy and sexual intimacy of consenting adults.[56] However, occasional prosecutions do occur.[57]

( from wiki )

Whether or not there should be jealousy isn't the issue for me. Jealousy exists, and my husband and I have chosen our way of dealing with it. We want to be exclusive-- it makes each of us feel cherished and special to be exclusive (and I'm not putting words in my husband's mouth here-- we've talked extensively about this over the years.)

If you feel differently, there's nothing better or worse about your point of view-- I assume you seek partners who feel the same way. Even if you don't, it's not any of my business (For that reason, I have real issues with adultery laws.)

Why does jealousy exist? What is it's origins?

[lordpasternack]

Why does jealousy exist? What is it's origins?

All types of jealousy, or just sexual jealousy in particular? In either case, the origin is evolutionary, culturally conditioned and in the brain...

[.Morticia.]

I ask because some people are and some people aren't.

Some things make one person jealous and other things make different people jealous.

I'm not sure if there are different types of jealousy. Maybe it's the same attitudes, beliefs and feelings applied to diffeernt circumstances.

[dj357]

have there any been studies on cases of adultery to figure out the motivations...?

[lordpasternack]

Not that I'm aware of - but I bet one of the main motivations is wanting to shag persons that are not one's marriage partner.

[dj357]

Well that one is a tad obvious I was more wondering specifics such as lack of sexual intimacy, loss of emotional connection etc... It would also be very interesting to see a breakdown on the gender percentages. My gut feeling is that men would be more prominent on the list but one never can tell.

[.Morticia.]

Not that I'm aware of - but I bet one of the main motivations is wanting to shag persons that are not one's marriage partner.

Why don't we do away with marriage altogether. I don't see any point to it.

Love and loyalty and faithfulness don't need a piece of paper to be real.

Some people say, well, it's a social thing, a cultural thing, a sharing thing, a statement.

But why should a relationship need public validation?

[dj357]

Not that I'm aware of - but I bet one of the main motivations is wanting to shag persons that are not one's marriage partner.

Why don't we do away with marriage altogether. I don't see any point to it.

Love and loyalty and faithfulness don't need a piece of paper to be real.

Some people say, well, it's a social thing, a cultural thing, a sharing thing, a statement.

But why should a relationship need public validation?

Yeah that's been my position for quite some time... That being said I was married and divorced by the age of 22... even though the marriage was strictly for logistical purposes I really wish I hadn't contradicted that position. Regardless, I've always felt that the kind of commitment you supposedly solidify with a wedding has actually been solid for quite some time (in most cases, Vegas weddings notwithstanding) by the time you reach the altar and what with the cost, the stress and the pure redundant nature of the whole thing I find it rather silly. The only benefits to be had, which are fairly prejudicial in nature, are the tax benefits.

That being said I do understand the need for people to carry out symbolic ritual and I would personally enjoy a small celebratory party with close friends to commemorate a relevant anniversary and look forward to the future of the relationship and our mutual growth but I'd stop at that.

I still welcome the increase in the availability of marriage and civil partnerships to gay couples around the globe though

[lordpasternack]

Last I heard, women weren't actually as far behind when it came to admitting to having had extramarital sex at least once. I do suspect men may win on the question of number of flings on the side, and frequency of friskiness, though. But I shall await further evidence…

As to your question of kind of exceptional motivations - well they obviously factor. I had sex with one married man who said he loved his wife, but felt she was a bit sexually uptight, insecure and conservative. I shagged another who quite openly didn't love his wife a jot, and was staying with her for purely pragmatic reasons. Had at least one married but separated… and a few who just liked a bit on the side, or apparently felt no compulsion to keep it in their trousers as it were.

I also was sort-of surreptitious myself back when I was in a relationship, near the end, when I saw other opportunities arise. In the particular cases, he did find out before the 'events' took place, and I didn't deny them at that stage, and they did then happen, of course… It was an odd relationship, heading towards its end, and it was one of the things that brought us to amicably calling it a day. Well, we did do a brief reprise at the start of 2010 which was quickly stubbed out following a certain life choice I made at that point, but I shan't go on…

I mean, be honest, has there ever been a point in even the most intense and glorious of your sexual/romantic relationships where you've ceased being sexually attracted to, occasionally sexually aroused by, and had even the most fleeting sexual thoughts about persons other than your main sexual/romantic partner? Sometimes the motivation to play.away needs to be no more than simply yielding to that 'temptation'…

[dj357]

Yeah there certainly has never been any of those times. Even in my current relationship which is deliriously awesome I can't deny the stray urge, but since I've made the transparent and willing decision to be monogamous despite my inherent nature to be otherwise the issue then turns to one of loyalty, which is where I form my primary definition of 'adultery' or 'cheating' which would simply be a betrayal of either an implicit or explicit agreement. To my mind it's all about honesty and if one cannot deny the urges and the wishes to be multifarious in respect to sexual partners despite an on-going relationship then that issue lies solely in the realm of honesty and loyalty. When polygamy and open relationships work they work only due to wide open and transparent communication.

To bring it back to the OP adultery or cheating is only as immoral as breaking an agreement with someone, which isn't immoral just frowned upon and generally to be avoided where possible.

Also thanks for the share, it's the kind of issue that needs personal arguments and an understanding of the genesis of those positions