Da Schneib shows up late

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MiM
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Re: Da Schneib shows up late

Post by MiM » Fri Sep 16, 2011 7:22 pm

Schneibster wrote:
MiM wrote:
Schneibster wrote:
Twoflower wrote:A friend of mine is wondering how you can gang rape someone on the internet?
Read this thread.
No Schneibster. This can get serious. With an accusation such as "gang rape" you are actually defaming and blaming specific people of something that is a criminal offence in any country. What you are doing could be prosecuted under law, in most of the involved jurisdictions. I have a hard time understanding why the mods are putting up with you at all.

That said, I think you initially had some good points, and I am very sad that they have gone waisted in this mutual pie throwing contest.
I didn't start it, and if you have a better metaphor for that mob scene, feel free to express it. ETA: I'm having trouble with someone who doesn't understand what metaphors are.

Please, people. End ETA

Sorry, I ask inconvenient questions. I don't think many people here understood the implications of that before I started asking them.

I haven't had any responses, either. I'd be a bit nervous about that if I were you. Hope none of your money's involved.
When does a metaphor turn into a personal attack? In my book you are way beyond that. Probably you are now saved only by the "no group attack", which, of course is another forum rule that is up to gaming.

Well, I'm not the one to answer your questions, but somehow I find it likely that you might be more likely to get your answers, if you'd continue to press the questions clearly, without mixing random accusations into them.
The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool - Richard Feynman

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Re: Da Schneib shows up late

Post by Schneibster » Fri Sep 16, 2011 7:32 pm

MiM wrote:When does a metaphor turn into a personal attack? In my book you are way beyond that.
I do realize that you are associated, possibly paramours or family, with the moderator who issued the inconsistent directive. I think you should be very careful, because this has the strong appearance of you working the system in favor of your friend.
MiM wrote:Probably you are now saved only by the "no group attack", which, of course is another forum rule that is up to gaming.
Probably I'm saved by the fact that no one has any answers, and some pretty extreme and transparent maneuvers have been engaged in to avoid admitting it. IOW, by embarrassment. I'd rather not be using that, but it's about all one is left with after dealing with a mob scene. I am still waiting for your metaphor and note with interest that you cannot come up with an alternative.
MiM wrote:Well, I'm not the one to answer your questions,
Then why are you posting in a thread that has become about them? Just for your health?
MiM wrote:but somehow I find it likely that you might be more likely to get your answers, if you'd continue to press the questions clearly, without mixing random accusations into them.
They're not random accusations. It's cover-up-itis. Coverups always get inflamed; people are best advised not to start with them.
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Re: Da Schneib shows up late

Post by MiM » Fri Sep 16, 2011 7:42 pm

Schneibster wrote:
MiM wrote:When does a metaphor turn into a personal attack? In my book you are way beyond that.
I do realize that you are associated, possibly paramours or family, with the moderator who issued the inconsistent directive. I think you should be very careful, because this has the strong appearance of you working the system in favor of your friend.
I was afraid this would come up. Let's make one thing clear. I don't work systems. And I don't speak for anyone else than myself. So consider my postings from their content and nothing else.

Yes, I guess am posting here out of a general urge to bicker with bickering people.

Edit:
BTW: You completely seemed to ignore that I said you initially had some good claims. Are you actually interested in furthering those issues?
Last edited by MiM on Fri Sep 16, 2011 7:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Da Schneib shows up late

Post by Schneibster » Fri Sep 16, 2011 7:47 pm

MiM wrote:
Schneibster wrote:
MiM wrote:When does a metaphor turn into a personal attack? In my book you are way beyond that.
I do realize that you are associated, possibly paramours or family, with the moderator who issued the inconsistent directive. I think you should be very careful, because this has the strong appearance of you working the system in favor of your friend.
I was afraid this would come up. Let's make one thing clear. I don't work systems.
I will take you at your word. And you should note, I did not imply or state that you did. I stated that you should be careful of the appearance of it, and you rang true, which is why I believe you. I will listen if you will speak without rancor, and in earnest of that I will ignore any rancor in the rest of this post and merely answer honestly.
MiM wrote:And I don't speak for anyone else than myself. So consider my postings from their content and nothing else.
OK. You should be aware that I answered the other points in your post. Please let me know if you'd like me to answer them with more consideration.
MiM wrote:Yes, I guess am posting here out of a general urge to bicker with bickering people.
You can do that with me, and it need not even get nasty. But I am forthright, and even blunt, and some people take that as attack, I guess. I have tried every other method, and it's pretty much always best to put it as straightforwardly as possible. I recommend for best results you do the same when you deal with me.
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Re: Da Schneib shows up late

Post by Schneibster » Fri Sep 16, 2011 7:49 pm

[rant] Will people please stop telling me what I think? [/rant]

ETA: Not you, MiM.
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Re: Da Schneib shows up late

Post by MiM » Fri Sep 16, 2011 7:53 pm

Schneibster wrote:[rant] Will people please stop telling me what I think? [/rant]

ETA: Not you, MiM.
Maybe it would help if yo'd stop telling others what they think (or try to achieve)?

I'm still not part of this, but "Tit for tat" is rather universal.
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Re: Da Schneib shows up late

Post by Schneibster » Fri Sep 16, 2011 7:55 pm

MiM wrote:Edit:
BTW: You completely seemed to ignore that I said you initially had some good claims. Are you actually interested in furthering those issues?
Only if I'm talking to someone reasonable, not the mob I just had to deal with. Since I'm assuming that's the case, yes, I'm very interested in that. It is, in fact, the raison d'etre for all posts on this thread, at least of mine, since the last "welcome" and my last "thanks."
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Re: Da Schneib shows up late

Post by Schneibster » Fri Sep 16, 2011 8:02 pm

MiM wrote:
Schneibster wrote:[rant] Will people please stop telling me what I think? [/rant]

ETA: Not you, MiM.
Maybe it would help if yo'd stop telling others what they think (or try to achieve)?
I'm not interested in what they think, I'm not interested in what they try to achieve, I'm interested in not having to listen to a bunch of lies, and I'm interested in posting some news aggregation (not popular stories, obscure but indicative stuff) and having some fun on the internet just screwing around with posting and puns and pictures and stuff, and having some social experiences.

It's a matter mostly of having a clean mind. If I have to listen to racist shit all the time, I insensibly and very slowly get influenced that way and start finding myself using racist language and excusing myself from self-criticism because it's "the guys" and I "gotta get along." It's bad for me. I blame three of my six heart attacks on it, not alone but in combination with other factors. It is very stressful to me to discover things like this in myself. Now imagine what happens to me if I have to listen to teabaggers all the time... not a pleasant picture, man.
MiM wrote:I'm still not part of this, but "Tit for tat" is rather universal.
Ummm, yep. Only thing is, what's "tit for tat" when one statement is the proof another is a lie? If that's "tit," then "tat" is merely revenge. Because "tat" only defends a lie, in that case. It might be universal, but that don't mean it's right, or fair, or a good idea to allow on a forum. Not, anyway, if you want any kind of peace with people who have honor, and principles, and old-fashioned stuff like that.
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Re: Da Schneib shows up late

Post by devogue » Fri Sep 16, 2011 8:12 pm

Well, I read through the thread in question and I think Schneib has a point.
Seth on Sat Sep 10, 2011 1:25 am wrote:
Schneibster wrote:So basically you just talk at people.
No, just juvenile Netwits. I tend to use them as useful idiots in my arguments. It's just toooo much fun! :fall:
It is absolutely clear from the flow of Seth and Schneib's argument that Seth's insults were aimed at Schneib.

Twenty minutes later, Schneib wrote this:
Schneibster on Sat Sep 10, 2011 1:45 am wrote:Gaming the system, what every good little jackbooted thug predictably does when the question he dare not answer comes along, when the opinion that scares him shows up.
Ronja, presumably speaking for the entire staff responded with this:
Ronja wrote:Schneibster, repeatedly accusing someone of gaming the system and implying that they are jackbooted thugs, is not playing nice (not to mention, gaming the system!). This is a reminder to please stay within the rules.
All of this could have been avoided if both Seth and Schneib had their heads cracked together in the gentlest possible way - no scary blue moderator font and singling out one individual when it was quite clear that two people had crossed the line. As it is, it really does look as though Seth has scored a "victory" over Schneib, and it's no wonder Schneib has a grievance.

Schneib has made a mountain out of a molehill in this thread, but in fairness that mountain has been created because of the frankly disgraceful dismissal of his concerns by a number of people, including staff, who don't seem to have read through the thread in question carefully enough. Once again, inconsistency in moderation rears its ugly head, and once again a lone voice looking for a bit of fairness is shot down with derails, abuse and dismissiveness.

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Re: Da Schneib shows up late

Post by Ian » Fri Sep 16, 2011 8:12 pm

This thread is :flog:

Talk about a mountain out of a molehill!

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Re: Da Schneib shows up late

Post by Ronja » Fri Sep 16, 2011 8:14 pm

Schneib:

Firstly - and this may have been posted already (I've been at campus and/or with my nose hard to the study grindstone for the last 48+ hours, and may have missed something) - you were reminded (in the blue note, posted by me) not for a specific or narrow offence, such as one personal attack. Instead, you were reminder for not playing nice. "Play nice" is our master rule, whereas specifically defined instances against it (such as "personal attack" or "harassment") are only examples of what does not fit under the general "play nice" umbrella. Some express this master rule thus: "By all means disagree, but don't be disagreeable about it."

"Following" one member around the forum from thread to thread, and posting comments that repeatedly single them out in a negative manner as an individual/character, cannot by any stretch of imagination be called "playing nice." Therefore you got that reminder (which, by the way, was not written by me personally - I posted it after the staff had agreed to the wording). The reminder specifically said "not playing nice" and it did not say "personal attack", and that was intentional.

Secondly, I did answer to you twice (links below), and I have two more answers waiting to be written (one on banter and one on a few reasons why not-so-nice posts can go unnoticed or unchallenged). All my answers, however, were planned to be about how the rules and their interpretation/implementation *are* here. Personally, I have little interest in speculating how the rules, or the interpretation thereof, could or should be different, unless a sizable number of the non-staff members start to make a lot of noise to that effect (IMO staff should seldom, if ever, drive rule change, and a sizable number is >> 1).

The rules here, or their implementation, are not perfect, that is true, and I don't see anyone here denying that. However, IMO "perfect" rules do not and cannot exists (see my first answer). Also, the interpretation / implementation of our imperfect rules a) is done by the staff as a group and b) follows a recognizable pattern (see my second answer). As there is a recognizable pattern in how the rules are interpreted, it should not be too difficult to figure out how not to break rules - or so I hope.

I will not try to change the rules or their interpretation here solely based on any one member's say-so. Furthermore, I would not have campaigned for the rule/interpretation change you are promoting if I were a non-staff member still, mostly because I do not understand what you are aiming at. Forbidding or controlling human deviousness? Making sure that nobody can skirt close to breaking the rules without really crossing the line? As I told you before (first answer, link in the previous paragraph), I am convinced that that cannot be done - maybe not at all, and certainly not without altering the culture of this forum drastically, which I have no desire of doing. I like the tongue-in-cheek cheese-bacon-hugs-sex-gossip-banter centered general "touch" of this place. If you don't, and wish for a more serious tone, then you maybe indeed are in the wrong place (which does not mean that I would want you to leave - IMO you contribute quite a bit to the forum). Yet, the forum is not at fault for having a culture and/or traditions that do not personally please you well enough. After all, this forum never was a made-for-measure project for you as a customer. Your very early complaints about the rules here, just days after you had arrived, did remind me a bit of a Finn complaining that the food tastes different than what (s)he is used to or prefers, after dining for the first time in a Thai restaurant.

Now, please, please try to get this: TROLLING (or "gaming the system", as you call something somewhat related, which you AFAIK refused to define) per se IS NOT AGAINST THE RULES. And has never been, here. Only malicious trolling with the intention of harassing, intimidating, tormenting or persecuting another member is. Got that now?

Why this is important? Because we have had some major and very public tussles over this issue, over the years, and the answer from the majority of the active membership has been resoundingly against forbidding "unpopular" or "outrageous" comments. Even comments that are deliberately designed to enrage a large percentage of the membership (and "advertised" so) are allowed - despite of the play nice rule - because the alternative that risks freedom of speech. As long as you are not targeting a specific member with your outrageous comment, you are free to be as outrageous as you can (though you will need to spoiler NSFW images in the open part of the forum, lest they be reported and deleted).

If you can convince a majority of the active (likely to vote in a poll) membership that any part of the rules/interpretation/implementation should change, then the rules/... very likely will be changed. But changing the rules or their interpretation based on just one member's opinions would be utterly unfair against all the other members, IMO.
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Re: Da Schneib shows up late

Post by devogue » Fri Sep 16, 2011 8:14 pm

Seraph wrote:The way things are going, Devogue will be losing his crown very soon.
I think not. :smug:

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Re: Da Schneib shows up late

Post by Rum » Fri Sep 16, 2011 8:18 pm

devogue wrote:
Seraph wrote:The way things are going, Devogue will be losing his crown very soon.
I think not. :smug:
:bored:

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Re: Da Schneib shows up late

Post by MiM » Fri Sep 16, 2011 8:19 pm

Schneibster wrote:... Only thing is, what's "tit for tat" when one statement is the proof another is a lie? If that's "tit," then "tat" is merely revenge. Because "tat" only defends a lie, in that case. It might be universal, but that don't mean it's right, or fair, or a good idea to allow on a forum. Not, anyway, if you want any kind of peace with people who have honor, and principles, and old-fashioned stuff like that.
I am not sure I am reading this as you mean to say it, but what I see here is "Schneibster has the proofs and all the rest are lying". If that is your claim, it is utter bullocks. As an example let me put forth the posts, where you were accused of lying. I agree, they did not have conclusive proof of you lying, even undeliberately, but your original claims where made with equal strength, although your case IMHO was even weaker than theirs.
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Re: Da Schneib shows up late

Post by Schneibster » Fri Sep 16, 2011 8:25 pm

devogue wrote:Well, I read through the thread in question and I think Schneib has a point.
Jesus H. Fucking Christ on a pogo stick wearing green and purple suspenders and shitting tomatoes. A person with a brain has obtruded their presence. Hopefully the idiots don't chase this person away.
devogue wrote:
Seth on Sat Sep 10, 2011 1:25 am wrote:
Schneibster wrote:So basically you just talk at people.
No, just juvenile Netwits. I tend to use them as useful idiots in my arguments. It's just toooo much fun! :fall:
It is absolutely clear from the flow of Seth and Schneib's argument that Seth's insults were aimed at Schneib.
I'm not even looking at this. What I'm looking at (and what you should be too) is what followed. Which was system-gaming, pure and simple, Seth making trouble over "fixed" or whatever permutation you folks like, the fairy with the green "fixed" logo is fine with me, I always use FIFY. My response was to that, not to the insult. If there's anything I hate, it's chickenshit, and gaming the system is the exact type of shit chickens do because they can't answer in kind.
devogue wrote:Twenty minutes later, Schneib wrote this:
Schneibster on Sat Sep 10, 2011 1:45 am wrote:Gaming the system, what every good little jackbooted thug predictably does when the question he dare not answer comes along, when the opinion that scares him shows up.
Correct. Note that this is based not upon a desire to insult, but a desire to correctly describe the act of system-gaming. I could be persuaded to use something other than "jackbooted thug," but I'm not entirely convinced "chickenshit" is going to go down much better. I would welcome alternatives that are sufficiently descriptive.

As previously noted on another thread, this is simply a description based on a person's actions, and as such should not be described as a "personal attack."
devogue wrote:Ronja, presumably speaking for the entire staff responded with this:
Ronja wrote:Schneibster, repeatedly accusing someone of gaming the system and implying that they are jackbooted thugs, is not playing nice (not to mention, gaming the system!). This is a reminder to please stay within the rules.
All of this could have been avoided if both Seth and Schneib had their heads cracked together in the gentlest possible way - no scary blue moderator font and singling out one individual when it was quite clear that two people had crossed the line. As it is, it really does look as though Seth has scored a "victory" over Schneib, and it's no wonder Schneib has a grievance.

Schneib has made a mountain out of a molehill in this thread,
I disagree. I think that it took a mountain to get anyone's attention, and that's not my fault. If you'd (corporate) paid attention in the first place it would never have happened, and I predicted it would long ago because I could see you (corporate) weren't. This again is blaming the victim of unfairness for the fuss s/he had to make to get anyone to do anything about it.
devogue wrote:but in fairness that mountain has been created because of the frankly disgraceful dismissal of his concerns by a number of people, including staff, who don't seem to have read through the thread in question carefully enough. Once again, inconsistency in moderation rears its ugly head, and once again a lone voice looking for a bit of fairness is shot down with derails, abuse and dismissiveness.
Hear him.
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