Osama bin Laden: Dead

[JimC]

I am disappointed to see the USA administration officially resorting to employing assassination squads. Although the Nuremberg trials of 1945/6 did not escape criticism, (Chief Justice of the United States Supreme Court Harlan Fiske Stone, for instance, called the Nuremberg trials a fraud and a high-grade lynching party because the accused were arraigned on ex post facto laws,) at least a pretense of a fair trial took place before ten of the twelve principal Nazis on trial were executed. (The other two committed suicide).

In so far as "we" are now resorting to assassination, the "free world" is lowering itself to the same level as its enemy. Coming on the heels of exempting selected suspects from habeas corpus, a number of other legal protections from injustice, and the reintroduction of systematic use of torture, all of which we prided ourselves on as a mark of distinction from less civilised societies, I think the victories we may be said to have won in the war against terrorism are rather hollow.

It worries me too, although for me there is also a bottom-line feeling that Bin Laden deserved to die...

However, precedents and slippery slopes are valid concerns.

It would have been better, even given the risks and problems, to forcibly extradite him and put him on trial; hopefully, either to be executed, or locked away for life...

Even then, the forcible extradition would have some legal ramifications, but I could live with that. As it is, I agree that it has all the hallmarks of an assassination, with the spin of "died while resisting arrest" being the hallmark of rather dodgy police procedures in other jurisdictions...

[Hermit]

it has all the hallmarks of an assassination, with the spin of "died while resisting arrest" being the hallmark of rather dodgy police procedures in other jurisdictions...

There does not appear to be even a hint of that spin. Early in his speech a few days ago Obama said he was killed AFTER a firefight. The word stuck out like dogs' balls.

[JimC]

it has all the hallmarks of an assassination, with the spin of "died while resisting arrest" being the hallmark of rather dodgy police procedures in other jurisdictions...

There does not appear to be even a hint of that spin. Early in his speech a few days ago Obama said he was killed AFTER a firefight. The word stuck out like dogs' balls.

Well, poorly applied spin, then...

What you are not going to get them to say is "we went in, and deliberately killed him because it was a better fit with our strategy than bringing him back alive"

Perhaps one day, we will have a US president who says exactly that...

One would applaud the honesty, then quietly prepare for armageddon...

[Hermit]

it has all the hallmarks of an assassination, with the spin of "died while resisting arrest" being the hallmark of rather dodgy police procedures in other jurisdictions...

There does not appear to be even a hint of that spin. Early in his speech a few days ago Obama said he was killed AFTER a firefight. The word stuck out like dogs' balls.

Well, poorly applied spin, then...

What you are not going to get them to say is "we went in, and deliberately killed him because it was a better fit with our strategy than bringing him back alive"

Perhaps one day, we will have a US president who says exactly that...

He has done that already. From the same speech: "I directed Leon Panetta, the director of the CIA, to make the killing or capture of bin Laden the top priority of our war against al Quaida." Take note of the sequence of words: killing comes before capture. I don't think that is just an accident.

[sandinista]

I am disappointed to see the USA administration officially resorting to employing assassination squads. Although the Nuremberg trials of 1945/6 did not escape criticism, (Chief Justice of the United States Supreme Court Harlan Fiske Stone, for instance, called the Nuremberg trials a fraud and a high-grade lynching party because the accused were arraigned on ex post facto laws,) at least a pretense of a fair trial took place before ten of the twelve principal Nazis on trial were executed. (The other two committed suicide).

In so far as "we" are now resorting to assassination, the "free world" is lowering itself to the same level as its enemy. Coming on the heels of exempting selected suspects from habeas corpus, a number of other legal protections from injustice, and the reintroduction of systematic use of torture, all of which we prided ourselves on as a mark of distinction from less civilised societies, I think the victories we may be said to have won in the war against terrorism are rather hollow.

It worries me too, although for me there is also a bottom-line feeling that Bin Laden deserved to die...

Who's "bottom line"? I'd disagree.

Well, poorly applied spin, then...

What you are not going to get them to say is "we went in, and deliberately killed him because it was a better fit with our strategy than bringing him back alive"

Perhaps one day, we will have a US president who says exactly that...

One would applaud the honesty, then quietly prepare for armageddon...

"Well, poorly applied spin, then... "...that's the problem, the feeling that..."well, he lied, so what...wink wink". Sad.

What amegeddon? Whats going to happen? Why not live up to what you preach. Stand up, tell it like it is, lying is always worse, if you're actions are bad enough or corrupt enough that you need to lie about them than you shouldn't preach freedom, democracy, liberty, and justice.

[Robert_S]

The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies -- civilians and military -- is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque and the holy mosque [Mecca] from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim. This is in accordance with the words of Almighty God, "and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together," and "fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God."

If you are in an organization attached to those words, you have nothing to complain about when Americans and their allies -- civilians and military-- come to kill you.

[JimC]

The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies -- civilians and military -- is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque and the holy mosque [Mecca] from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim. This is in accordance with the words of Almighty God, "and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together," and "fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God."

If you are in an organization attached to those words, you have nothing to complain about when Americans and their allies -- civilians and military-- come to kill you.

And it's clear statements like this from Islamic terrorists that Gawd and Sandi take no notice of whatsoever...

It is perfectly possible to detest islamofascists and their murderous, religious-based actions while still feeling disquiet about aspects of US policy in response to them...

[Robert_S]

The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies -- civilians and military -- is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque and the holy mosque [Mecca] from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim. This is in accordance with the words of Almighty God, "and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together," and "fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God."

If you are in an organization attached to those words, you have nothing to complain about when Americans and their allies -- civilians and military-- come to kill you.

And it's clear statements like this from Islamic terrorists that Gawd and Sandi take no notice of whatsoever...

It is perfectly possible to detest islamofascists and their murderous, religious-based actions while still feeling disquiet about aspects of US policy in response to them...

I have no disquiet about killing Osamma in any way at all. When your words have killed, have sent the gullible die carrying out your orders, it might be acceptable that you be silenced.

[JimC]

The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies -- civilians and military -- is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque and the holy mosque [Mecca] from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim. This is in accordance with the words of Almighty God, "and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together," and "fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God."

If you are in an organization attached to those words, you have nothing to complain about when Americans and their allies -- civilians and military-- come to kill you.

And it's clear statements like this from Islamic terrorists that Gawd and Sandi take no notice of whatsoever...

It is perfectly possible to detest islamofascists and their murderous, religious-based actions while still feeling disquiet about aspects of US policy in response to them...

I have no disquiet about killing Osamma in any way at all. When your words have killed, have sent the gullible die carrying out your orders, it might be acceptable that you be silenced.

I am not unhappy that he is dead per se, but the actions which led to his passing, as discussed in many posts in this thread, are disquieting, problematic and may come back to haunt international relations in the future...

[Robert_S]

...depends if it is a general precedent or a precedent for what to do after 3,000+ dead and 10 years not getting anywhere legally.

[sandinista]

The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies -- civilians and military -- is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque and the holy mosque [Mecca] from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim. This is in accordance with the words of Almighty God, "and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together," and "fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God."

If you are in an organization attached to those words, you have nothing to complain about when Americans and their allies -- civilians and military-- come to kill you.

And it's clear statements like this from Islamic terrorists that Gawd and Sandi take no notice of whatsoever...

It is perfectly possible to detest islamofascists and their murderous, religious-based actions while still feeling disquiet about aspects of US policy in response to them...

So, you're saying, in essence, we, the west should lower ourselves to their level. A race to the bottom. Again, sad. Perhaps if the west lived up to it's lofty goals instead of adopting the methods of "terrorists". If you really want to stop terrorism, a good first step would be to stop participating in it. You also fail to understand that this conflict/war is not a "your either with us or with "the terrorists"" kind of scenario. You can, rightly, criticize the west and still not "support" the crazy muslims.

[JimC]

The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies -- civilians and military -- is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque and the holy mosque [Mecca] from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim. This is in accordance with the words of Almighty God, "and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together," and "fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God."

If you are in an organization attached to those words, you have nothing to complain about when Americans and their allies -- civilians and military-- come to kill you.

And it's clear statements like this from Islamic terrorists that Gawd and Sandi take no notice of whatsoever...

It is perfectly possible to detest islamofascists and their murderous, religious-based actions while still feeling disquiet about aspects of US policy in response to them...

So, you're saying, in essence, we, the west should lower ourselves to their level. A race to the bottom. Again, sad. Perhaps if the west lived up to it's lofty goals instead of adopting the methods of "terrorists". If you really want to stop terrorism, a good first step would be to stop participating in it. You also fail to understand that this conflict/war is not a "your either with us or with "the terrorists"" kind of scenario. You can, rightly, criticize the west and still not "support" the crazy muslims.

Again, not a single response to the chilling evil of the jihadist statement...

One dimensional; for you, any aspect of US and allied policy is evil and wrong, and no criticism must ever be levelled at those who oppose the west, even if the opposition is for reasons of barbaric and medieval delusion... At least I can criticise aspects of US policy without becoming an apologist for religious nutjobs.

Islam also hates the left, with a deep and abiding passion. Even the lesser satan should be destroyed...

[Coito ergo sum]

They should have taken him to a military morgue on an American aircraft carrier and kept him on ice. They should have flown folks from the Arab League over to the carrier to view the body. They should have released photos of the body, after all, Osama's attacks were attacks against all Americans, and others, and we ought to have the right to see him. Why there should be secrecy here makes no sense.

All the talk of "sensitivity" to Muslims is stupid. They announced that the SEALs brought bomb sniffing dogs with them - where's the sensitivity there? Muslims hate dogs as unclean animals, and we had them sniffing all over Muslim land and living and dead Muslims. And, we shot a bunch of Muslims there. Now we need to be"sensitive?" Come on...

CES, the move was designed to show that we are aware of Muslim tradition and custom. Burial within 24, with proper ceremony. The softliners can say we observed the forms in the matter, and didn't drag him by his heels through Times Square.

I don't think there has to be that extreme as the only other option. Jewish and Muslim tradition both have the quick burial tradition, but it's not mandatory in the sense that there aren't exceptions. Where it is not feasible or where there is good reason to not follow that custom, it's permitted. Like, when a Muslim is a murder victim in the US and they have to do an autopsy.

I wouldn't support "parading" him like Vercingetorix through the streets of Rome, but I certainly think that we can behave reasonably.

I'm not suggesting the guy isn't dead, or that it wasn't justified that he be killed. I just think that the whole mess of incorrect information, followed by more incorrect information, coupled with a hasty dumping of the body at sea, plus a kaibosh on the photos...it just smells like something is fishy and gives the tinfoil hat fucks a wide open door to walk through. It also is amateurish in its sloppiness.

I was telling you the reasons they stated for doing it that way, not speculating.

I know. The reasons they advance present a false dilemma between "dragging through Times Square" and "strict observance of this 24-hour policy." The 24 hour policy is like the "don't make war during Ramadan" rule we heard about in the early days of the war against Al Qaeta. It winds up being a rule conveniently applied or ignored, as needed, and observed more in its breach...

[Coito ergo sum]

The Americans on this board and in general are so vindictive and blind (except for Coito). They are full of rage and willful deceit that they do not see that they hold responsibility for creating the Taliban, Al Qaeda, and the rise of power of Osama bin Laden. They do not see any reason at all for an attack on Americans when decades of American sponsored wars, assassinations, and greed in the Middle East have brought forth it`s own vengeance. The murder of Osama bin Laden only goes to fuel more anger at the Americans, which started their own fire.

That's an overly simplistic assignment of blame. Obviously, no event is in a vacuum, and the US is not the only actor in the world, nor is it the only guilty actor. Other nations also participate and no more or less honorably or well intentioned than the United States.

I agree with you. If you look at it it's really a game. LIke a chess game on a grand scale.

The way I see it USA is announcing that we still have to work with Pakistan with good faith, even though (the whole OBL invasion) was done without them even knowing about it.
This tells me one thing. USA, at some point stopped believing Pakistan and made a decision to act without them, in so, showing we don't really trust them. On the outside, we remain like two good little tykes playing in the sand, but in reality, and quietly, I think US is questioning Pakistan big time.

Are you opposed to the US invading other countries without being invited, without UN approval, and without the authorization of the US Congress?

[Coito ergo sum]

Gotta love Michael Moore: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/ ... trial.html "They killed him not because there was a fire fight or something going on. They went there with the intention to kill him. That's an execution or an assassination, whatever you want to call it," Michael Moore told CNN.

If, of course, this happened 3 years ago, he would not have spoken in pronouns...he would have said BUSH AND CHENEY killed him and BUSH AND CHENEY sent the SEALS in with the intention of killing him, and that's an assassination by BUSH AND CHENEY whatever you want to call it....

Now, though, he's careful to use pronoun form "they..."