Don't care for a topic title

Post Reply
User avatar
Rob
Carpe Diem
Posts: 2558
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 1:49 am
About me: Just a man in love with science and the pursuit of knowledge.
Location: Seattle, WA
Contact:

Don't care for a topic title

Post by Rob » Mon May 02, 2011 3:21 pm

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn ... /bin_laden

Thinking of the thread detailing patriotism, this article sort of made me nod in agreement.
The killing of Osama bin Laden is one of those events which, especially in the immediate aftermath, is not susceptible to reasoned discussion. It's already a Litmus Test event: all Decent People -- by definition -- express unadulterated ecstacy at his death, and all Good Americans chant "USA! USA!" in a celebration of this proof of our national greatness and Goodness (and that of our President). Nothing that deviates from that emotional script will be heard, other than by those on the lookout for heretics to hold up and punish. Prematurely interrupting a national emotional consensus with unwanted rational truths accomplishes nothing but harming the heretic (ask Bill Maher about how that works).

I'd have strongly preferred that Osama bin Laden be captured rather than killed so that he could be tried for his crimes and punished in accordance with due process (and to obtain presumably ample intelligence). But if he in fact used force to resist capture, then the U.S. military was entitled to use force against him, the way American police routinely do against suspects who use violence to resist capture. But those are legalities and they will be ignored even more so than usual. The 9/11 attack was a heinous and wanton slaughter of thousands of innocent civilians, and it's understandable that people are reacting with glee over the death of the person responsible for it. I personally don't derive joy or an impulse to chant boastfully at the news that someone just got two bullets put in their skull -- no matter who that someone is -- but that reaction is inevitable: it's the classic case of raucously cheering in a movie theater when the dastardly villain finally gets his due.

But beyond the emotional fulfillment that comes from vengeance and retributive justice, there are two points worth considering. The first is the question of what, if anything, is going to change as a result of the two bullets in Osama bin Laden's head? Are we going to fight fewer wars or end the ones we've started? Are we going to see a restoration of some of the civil liberties which have been eroded at the alter of this scary Villain Mastermind? Is the War on Terror over? Are we Safer now?

Those are rhetorical questions. None of those things will happen. If anything, I can much more easily envision the reverse. Whenever America uses violence in a way that makes its citizens cheer, beam with nationalistic pride, and rally around their leader, more violence is typically guaranteed. Futile decade-long wars in Iraq and Afghanistan may temporarily dampen the nationalistic enthusiasm for war, but two shots to the head of Osama bin Laden -- and the We are Great and Good proclamations it engenders -- can easily rejuvenate that war love. One can already detect the stench of that in how Pakistan is being talked about: did they harbor bin Laden as it seems and, if so, what price should they pay? We're feeling good and strong about ourselves again -- and righteous -- and that's often the fertile ground for more, not less, aggression.

And then there's the notion that America has once again proved its greatness and preeminence by killing bin Laden. Americans are marching in the street celebrating with a sense of national pride. When is the last time that happened? It seems telling that hunting someone down and killing them is one of the few things that still produce these feelings of nationalistic unity. I got on an airplane last night before the news of bin Laden's killing was known and had actually intended to make this point with regard to our killing of Gadaffi's son in Libya -- a mere 25 years after President Reagan bombed Libya and killed Gadaffi's infant daughter. That is something the U.S. has always done well and is one of the few things it still does well. This is how President Obama put it in last night's announcement:

The cause of securing our country is not complete. But tonight, we are once again reminded that America can do whatever we set our mind to. That is the story of our history, whether it’s the pursuit of prosperity for our people, or the struggle for equality for all our citizens; our commitment to stand up for our values abroad, and our sacrifices to make the world a safer place.

Does hunting down Osama bin Laden and putting bullets in his skull really "remind us that we can do whatever we set our mind to"? Is that really "the story of our history"? That seems to set the bar rather low in terms of national achievement and character.

In sum, a murderous religious extremist was killed. The U.S. has erupted in a collective orgy of national pride and renewed faith in the efficacy and righteousness of military force. Other than that, the repercussions are likely to be far greater in terms of domestic politics -- it's going to be a huge boost to Obama's re-election prospects and will be exploited for that end -- than anything else.
My facebook is filled with people who are shouting USA-USA-WE GOT HIM, a few even going so far saying they are glad the Towel-head/sand nigger is dead.
I can live with doubt, and uncertainty, and not knowing. I think it's much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers which might be wrong. [...] I don’t feel frightened by not knowing things, by being lost in a mysterious universe without having any purpose, which is the way it really is, as far as I can tell, possibly. It doesn’t frighten me. - Richard Feynman

User avatar
Xamonas Chegwé
Bouncer
Bouncer
Posts: 50939
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 3:23 pm
About me: I have prehensile eyebrows.
I speak 9 languages fluently, one of which other people can also speak.
When backed into a corner, I fit perfectly - having a right-angled arse.
Location: Nottingham UK
Contact:

Re: Don't care for a topic title

Post by Xamonas Chegwé » Mon May 02, 2011 3:29 pm

Yep. Herd mentality kicking in. Sickens me a little. And his death will do nothing to end terrorism or ease tensions - in fact, it will simply create another martyr for the herd in the other paddock to glorify. Meh.
A book is a version of the world. If you do not like it, ignore it; or offer your own version in return.
Salman Rushdie
You talk to God, you're religious. God talks to you, you're psychotic.
House MD
Who needs a meaning anyway, I'd settle anyday for a very fine view.
Sandy Denny
This is the wrong forum for bluffing :nono:
Paco
Yes, yes. But first I need to show you this venomous fish!
Calilasseia
I think we should do whatever Pawiz wants.
Twoflower
Bella squats momentarily then waddles on still peeing, like a horse
Millefleur

User avatar
Faithfree
The Potable Atheist
Posts: 16174
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 11:58 am
About me: All things in moderation, including moderation
Location: Planet of the grapes
Contact:

Re: Don't care for a topic title

Post by Faithfree » Mon May 02, 2011 3:33 pm

Xamonas Chegwé wrote:Yep. Herd mentality kicking in. Sickens me a little. And his death will do nothing to end terrorism or ease tensions - in fact, it will simply create another martyr for the herd in the other paddock to glorify. Meh.
+1
Although it may look like a forum, this site is actually a crowd-sourced science project modelling the slow but inexorable heat death of the universe.

User avatar
laklak
Posts: 21022
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:07 pm
About me: My preferred pronoun is "Massah"
Location: Tannhauser Gate
Contact:

Re: Don't care for a topic title

Post by laklak » Mon May 02, 2011 3:35 pm

Should have captured him alive. Then we could have dragged him around the Daytona track behind a Jeep at the start of the Firecracker 400 on July 4th. Fuck YEAH!
Yeah well that's just, like, your opinion, man.

User avatar
Feck
.
.
Posts: 28391
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 1:25 pm
Contact:

Re: Don't care for a topic title

Post by Feck » Mon May 02, 2011 3:43 pm

USA USA USA AWESOME ! see All you liberal commie atheists thought we shouldn't have invaded Iraq well HA HA sucks to be you now !
:hoverdog: :hoverdog: :hoverdog: :hoverdog:
Give me the wine , I don't need the bread

User avatar
Xamonas Chegwé
Bouncer
Bouncer
Posts: 50939
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 3:23 pm
About me: I have prehensile eyebrows.
I speak 9 languages fluently, one of which other people can also speak.
When backed into a corner, I fit perfectly - having a right-angled arse.
Location: Nottingham UK
Contact:

Re: Don't care for a topic title

Post by Xamonas Chegwé » Mon May 02, 2011 3:47 pm

laklak wrote:Should have captured him alive. Then we could have dragged him around the Daytona track behind a Jeep at the start of the Firecracker 400 on July 4th. Fuck YEAH!
Dead martyr / live martyr. Same result. There are thousands eager to climb into his sandals and shrewd enough to capitalise on any US action against Bin Laden personally for propaganda purposes.

No. This was a purely domestic victory... for Obama.
A book is a version of the world. If you do not like it, ignore it; or offer your own version in return.
Salman Rushdie
You talk to God, you're religious. God talks to you, you're psychotic.
House MD
Who needs a meaning anyway, I'd settle anyday for a very fine view.
Sandy Denny
This is the wrong forum for bluffing :nono:
Paco
Yes, yes. But first I need to show you this venomous fish!
Calilasseia
I think we should do whatever Pawiz wants.
Twoflower
Bella squats momentarily then waddles on still peeing, like a horse
Millefleur

User avatar
laklak
Posts: 21022
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:07 pm
About me: My preferred pronoun is "Massah"
Location: Tannhauser Gate
Contact:

Re: Don't care for a topic title

Post by laklak » Mon May 02, 2011 3:57 pm

Xamonas Chegwé wrote:
laklak wrote:Should have captured him alive. Then we could have dragged him around the Daytona track behind a Jeep at the start of the Firecracker 400 on July 4th. Fuck YEAH!
Dead martyr / live martyr. Same result. There are thousands eager to climb into his sandals and shrewd enough to capitalise on any US action against Bin Laden personally for propaganda purposes.

No. This was a purely domestic victory... for Obama.
Damn, here you go you gettin all realistic and raining on my parade. I just want to be sitting behind this guy while 150,000 screaming rednecks jump up and down and wave flags and Dale Earnhardt, Jr. drags the corpse around the Daytona oval at 200 mph behind a 1200 horsepower NASCAR Chevy Malibu and Sarah Palin strips to Lynyrd Skynyrd singing "God, Guns and Guts".

Image

C'mon. You know you'd pay to see that.
Yeah well that's just, like, your opinion, man.

User avatar
charlou
arseist
Posts: 32530
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:36 am

Re: Don't care for a topic title

Post by charlou » Mon May 02, 2011 4:09 pm

Ayep.



That's to the topic (without a title), although I'd consider paying to see a depiction of Goya's Satan devouring his son shaved onto laklak's hairy back.
no fences

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 38 guests