Art Appreciation.

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Geoff
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Re: Art Appreciation.

Post by Geoff » Sun May 01, 2011 7:00 pm

hadespussercats wrote:
Seraph wrote:
hadespussercats wrote:Full disclosure:

I could find the "Sarcasm" emoticon.
Dayang. All this time I thought you were actually on to something. The bit where you said that art is subjective.
Who said it isn't?

That's not all there is to it, though.
I still disagree, though I'm open to having my opinion changed...

I'd compare it to other "artistic" endeavours such as music, films, dance, literature or cooking. It makes little or no difference to me how technically challenging the works are in any of those fields, the appreciation of the end product is all that matters.
Some of the above I do know a lot about, in terms of their creative techniques; others I don't, but it makes no difference to my apppreciation of the results.

If anything, in-depth objective analysis of an artistic product can detract from it's subjective appeal, for me. There are works I studied in school that I liked less after study than before, for example.

The LOTR films aren't improved by watching the "behind the scenes" DVD extras...a violin solo isn't improved by knowing its technical difficulty...Kristie's cakes aren't improved by knowing how much work goes into them...XC's lyrics are no worse for knowing they were thrown together in two minutes...


All IMO, of course.
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Re: Art Appreciation.

Post by Rum » Sun May 01, 2011 7:11 pm

Geoff wrote:
hadespussercats wrote:
Seraph wrote:
hadespussercats wrote:Full disclosure:

I could find the "Sarcasm" emoticon.
Dayang. All this time I thought you were actually on to something. The bit where you said that art is subjective.
Who said it isn't?

That's not all there is to it, though.
I still disagree, though I'm open to having my opinion changed...

I'd compare it to other "artistic" endeavours such as music, films, dance, literature or cooking. It makes little or no difference to me how technically challenging the works are in any of those fields, the appreciation of the end product is all that matters.
Some of the above I do know a lot about, in terms of their creative techniques; others I don't, but it makes no difference to my apppreciation of the results.

If anything, in-depth objective analysis of an artistic product can detract from it's subjective appeal, for me. There are works I studied in school that I liked less after study than before, for example.

The LOTR films aren't improved by watching the "behind the scenes" DVD extras...a violin solo isn't improved by knowing its technical difficulty...Kristie's cakes aren't improved by knowing how much work goes into them...XC's lyrics are no worse for knowing they were thrown together in two minutes...


All IMO, of course.
You might argue the experience is 'richer' if you know behind the scenes info. An example from art would be (and there are thousands) Salvador Dali's landscapes are drawn almost exclusively from the area around where he grew up. You can (and I have) matched actually views in RL to actual elements in his pictures. Many of the devices he used (melty clocks for example) were specific in their symbolism and knowing what they are helps to 'read' the picture.

You don't need either of those things to enjoy and appreciate a Dali painting, but for me it makes it more enjoyable and as I say 'richer'.

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Re: Art Appreciation.

Post by floppit » Sun May 01, 2011 7:50 pm

I adore art. Of all the things I possess, only the art gives me the same pleasure as the day I bought it.

Some stuff i've learned to love, like batique after watching the skill the really good stuff takes. Other stuff for different reasons, just 'cos or because it captures something from somewhere and leaves me feeling like a time traveller looking at it, or the way light is used, or even just pure, unrelenting care that's gone into it. I like some. Modern stuff and old stuff, even tracy emins (sp?) sparrow on a stick - I love it.

I stood in front of a pic and told. Munch it was a painting, she said it was a photograph then I showed her the tiny brushstrokes and said some painted it with a brush - her face opened and I think that's what I feel.

I've never read a book on art but may do one day - who knows? I enjoy it though, will almost always take a chance to view a gallery and like best of all to find original art dusty and lost in junk, then love it. Back to health.

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Re: Art Appreciation.

Post by floppit » Sun May 01, 2011 7:52 pm

'scuse random full stops - phone posting!

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Re: Art Appreciation.

Post by hadespussercats » Sun May 01, 2011 8:58 pm

All right, I'm through being facetious for the moment, and I'd like to put up a case study of my experience with art criticism/appreciation:
Mark Rothko and Jackson Pollock.

Here's some Wikipedia links, which I actually haven't read (yet):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Rothko
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pollock

Both are often referred to as Abstract Expressionists, though Rothko apparently didn't think his work belonged in that category, so I'll just set titles aside for the moment. Both artists explored what a painting can be, when you abandon traditional subject matter in search for something different.

For years, I saw reproductions of Rothko's work in art history books, and wondered what all the fuss was about.

Okay, he's not painting people, or flowers, or et cetera et cetera. He's looking at the impact of color on our emotions. But, hey, I just painted a wall in my apartment bright red. Sure, it's pretty. But so what?

Of course, at the time I probably didn't appreciate how difficult it is to reproduce color accurately for publication. But that's secondary to what happened next.

I went to the Met, here in New York. I think I was in high school.
There's a room, upstairs, that is pretty much made of a couple Rothko paintings. They're huge.
I stepped in, and everything changed.

For one, there's just no translating the effect of a giant mass of color in a reproduction in a book.
And the colors weren't flat. They hinted at hidden depths. One color played against another, vibrating in my brain.
I stood and stared. I felt outside the flow of time.
And I felt full of awe. In the old sense, Rum, it was awesome.

I get it. I get it now.

I couldn't shake the mood that room put me in, for days.
You want to talk visceral? That room was a punch right in the gut.
And all of a sudden, I understood why it was important that Rothko decided to look at what a painting can do, when one abandons traditional representation.

Oddly enough, now that I've had that in-the-flesh experience, I feel it (albeit at a much lesser extent) when I see his work published.

But that visceral experience has left me full of other questions, that can be explored through other avenues.
Why did that color affect me the way it did?
Is there something really physiological going on, in my response to it?
Would any person who could see those colors experience some kind of affect akin to what I felt, or was my response shaped by the culture in which I was raised, etc., etc.
What was Rothko like, that he could see this, and find a way to show it in his work?
Did the Catholic Church understand that response to color, and use it to manipulate the emotions of churchgoers, when It started employing stained glass in churches and cathedrals (for me, the emotional impact was similar.)
and so on and so forth.

Now, let's look at Pollock.
I'm not of the camp that sees his paintings and thinks: he just threw paint at a canvas; or my seven-year-old daughter could do that.
Setting aside possibly (probably) apocryphal stories that Pollock's swirls of paint describe fractal forms,
I've tried it. And while it was fun, my paintings didn't look a thing like his. Maybe it has something to do with the mechanics of his wrists and arms.

Although I didn't know at the time that he had a swing harness and suspended himself over some of his work.
And even if I did, none of my workspaces ran to those sorts of amenities.
(Though I have to think-- paint, swing harness, giant canvasses-- that could be a fun night with the right company.)

Anyway, while I understand what Pollock was doing, on some level, at least,
questioning what a painting can be, exploring the different ways to use paint to express ideas or emotions,
and I recognize that if he hadn't asked those questions or done that work, there's a lot of other art that might never have come to be,
When I look at his paintings, they leave me cold.

Sure, they look fun to make (though, knowing the little I do about Pollock's life, I guess it wasn't as fun as it looks.)
They're energetic.
But, for me at least, they never break through to something deeper-- that moment of timeless revelation I felt when I was in the Rothko room.

So I wonder, Well, why is that?
And I try to figure it out. Which leads to other questions, that again aren't strictly about my emotional connection to the work,
even if that's what inspired them.

And i find it interesting.
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Re: Art Appreciation.

Post by Geoff » Sun May 01, 2011 9:51 pm

I get the feeling we may be talking about something different here. If I'm reading your post right, the dramatic subjective impact of the Rothko painting came first, unaffected by any objective knowledge of his techniques, which is pretty much what I'm trying to say.

...you go on to say that it's "interesting", and again I agree, in the sense of "further reading". I can experience works of art that make me want to find out more about them, or their creator, but that still doesn't significantly affect my initial subjective appreciation.
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Re: Art Appreciation.

Post by hadespussercats » Sun May 01, 2011 10:14 pm

Geoff wrote:I get the feeling we may be talking about something different here. If I'm reading your post right, the dramatic subjective impact of the Rothko painting came first, unaffected by any objective knowledge of his techniques, which is pretty much what I'm trying to say.

...you go on to say that it's "interesting", and again I agree, in the sense of "further reading". I can experience works of art that make me want to find out more about them, or their creator, but that still doesn't significantly affect my initial subjective appreciation.
No, actually the reverse-- I'd read about Rothko for years, then experienced the actual work, which then inspired further searching.

I'm trying to show how the emotional experience of art dovetails with other aspects of art appreciation-- intellectual, educational, interdisciplinary, etc., etc., though a description of some of my personal experiences.

But I agree-- sometimes knowing more doesn't help me "feel" a piece of art at all-- that's what I was getting at with my Pollock example. Though learning more about him can be intriguing, for other reasons...

And, in a move you might appreciate-- I rarely read the little plaques next to works of art in museums and galleries, unless I see something in the work I'm curious about. Usually because i don't want someone else's opinion tainting my original experience of something (I rarely read reviews of plays or films beforehand, for the same reason. Then afterwards, I do-- to see if I agree with the critics, or to see if they bring up some aspect of the work I hadn't considered.)

Edited to add: But in general, I wonder if I would have taken the time to even try to understand art I didn't connect with, if it weren't for the teachers and writers of various stripes who inspired me to look deeper.
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