lol @ British law enforcement

[Coito ergo sum]

Dammit! This is simply not possible, after all the UK has draconian anti-gun laws that are guaranteed to keep guns out of the hands of criminals, right? And we all know criminals obey anti-gun laws in the UK and everywhere else.....oh, wait....never mind!

One more victim to British delusion and political correctness. Poor little sheeple. It's sad, really.

US gun deaths for 2004: 10.3 per 100,00.
English gun deaths for 2004: 0.46 per 100,00.

Yeah, the gun laws don't work. /sarcasm.

Wiki source, but their primary sources are listed on their site.

And, after all that, if you compare the intentional homicide rate of the US with Europe, you get the same rate, approximately. Europe's rate per hundred thousand people is 5.4, and the US rate is 5.0. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... icide_rate

That's, of course, comparing apples to apples.

If we want to limit the comparison to just the UK, rather than all of Europe, then we need to limit the comparison to individual US states to the UK. US states range from a low of 0.8 per hundred thousand (New Hampshire) and 1.1 (Hawaii and Vermont) to 8.7 (New Mexico). For obvious reasons, New Mexico, bordering on Mexico....has its murder rate jacked way the fuck up for reasons not related to American culture. Other states with very low rates, under 2.0, are Idaho, Iowa, Maine, Minnesota, Montana, Utah and North Dakota. Those with above a 2.0 but not over 3.0 are Wisconsin, Wyoming, Washington, South Dakota, Rhode Island, Oregon, Massachusetts, and Connecticut. http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/murder- ... -and-state

So - a good 18 states are about as good as the UK. While Euros tend to want to compare the top countries of western Europe and line that up against the entire US of 330, 000,000 people and its broad geographical and social differences, it's not a fair comparison. That would be like comparing Hawaii, New Hampshire or Vermont with Estonia, Belarus and Ukraine.

[Feck]

Read my post CES and disagree ,I dare you .

[Clinton Huxley]

Nice statistical sleight of hand, CES. UK v USA comparison is valid. Last time I checked, HMG had very little influence on Ukranian gun laws.

[Coito ergo sum]

There was a UK case recently where a young game keeper fucked up really badly and a Negligent Discharge killed his GF He phone the police told them what had happened went outside and killed himself .

I like guns (long ones ,not little sneaky people killers ) I think the UK has gone way too far in their restriction of them . I think the US has too few restrictions I never want to live in a place that normal citizens feel that carrying a hand gun is required for everyday safety

That isn't the way it is in the US. Most Americans don't carry guns or even own guns. I have been all over the US and lived in three different states in different areas of the country, and other than police officers and hunters I think I saw someone actually carrying a gun openly in public maybe twice in my life. For sure once. I'm in my 40s. I think many Europeans who have never been the States have a wild west image of what the States are like.

. I think to say that a gun is just a tool and that criminals would still kill themselves or innocents if they didn't have guns is not entirely true ... I know lots of people that might have the guts to pull a trigger but only a couple of crims with the guts to use a knife .
One thing in favour of UK laws is that minor criminals don't get killed for stealing a car or for burglary ... It may seem that the householder has a right to protect property BUT honestly is your TV , stereo or car worth as much as a teenagers life ?

Very rarely are there home defense killings in the US. For one thing, they occur when people are home in the house. And, you know what? If I own a gun or a bat, or a golf club, I'm not fucking waiting to determine the "teenager's" intentions before I smash the fucking criminal. I won't give him the chance to hurt my wife or child. End of story. If they break in while we're not at home, there won't be a defense issue. They will steal and leave.

But, what the fuck is this nonsense about "is the tv worth the life of a teenager.' First of all - it may not be a teenager - and there is no reason to presume it is a teenager. Second, the teenager may kill you or your wife or child. Third, you don't know why they're coming into your house and you have a right to live in your home peacefully, and they have no right to be there. We ought not tell people that they have to cower or run in the face of a HOME invasion. The line ought to be drawn around your bedroom and family's bedrooms - someone has ALREADY assaulted you at that point - the "teenagers" have already violated you, your peace of mind, the sanctity of your home, your privacy, etc.

Is my "tv" worth the life of a two bit hood? I'm not sure about that. But, I do know it is worth the peace of mind, mental well-being, and privacy of my wife, and my child, and god damn right I'll fucking kill the sonofabitch that threatens them, and I don't think I ought to be burdened with the responsibility of determining what their "intention" is (whether to take a tv or rape my wife or kidnap my child). The worst intent on their part ought to be presumed, and the burden should be on them to prove otherwise, and if they don't and I take my "rounders" bat and shove it in their ear, then I ought to get a medal.

[Coito ergo sum]

Nice statistical sleight of hand, CES. UK v USA comparison is valid. Last time I checked, HMG had very little influence on Ukranian gun laws.

Thank you. But, in the US, 99% of gun laws is at the State level. So, the point is valid. Last time I checked, the Vermont government has very little influence on New Mexico gun laws, and neither does Washington DC.

[Clinton Huxley]

You said it, CES:-

The worst intent on their part ought to be presumed

Basically, the Amerian view of the entire rest of the world, explains a lot....

[Azathoth]

He didn't even have to take a wrong turn to end up dead in a cul-de-sac.

He didn't need to take a wrong turn to end up in the ghetto. He was already in Brixton

[Feck]

No matter what is said there is a comparison between the murder (and death )rate and the availability of guns . Should any citizen want or need a weapon solely designed to kill people ? Is there a legitimate use for a full auto to be kept at home or in the car ? i've said in many threads that UK gun laws are insane ,mostly made by politicians in response to incidents where a perp was breaking the laws we did have anyway . BUT British people don't actually ever consider that a crim is likely to be carrying a gun .

Can none of the Americans see that this is a better way to live ?

[Coito ergo sum]

You said it, CES:-

The worst intent on their part ought to be presumed

Basically, the Amerian view of the entire rest of the world, explains a lot....

That statement is so much fatuous casuistry. It's not worth the dignity of a response. It's unbecoming of you, CH. But, if your thought process is to debate with burglars, while your family is in the home, to ensure that you don't take action against the good, kind and needy burglars, then, I suppose that explains quite a lot as well.

[Clinton Huxley]

You said it, CES:-

The worst intent on their part ought to be presumed

Basically, the Amerian view of the entire rest of the world, explains a lot....

That statement is so much fatuous casuistry. It's not worth the dignity of a response. It's unbecoming of you, CH. But, if your thought process is to debate with burglars, while your family is in the home, to ensure that you don't take action against the good, kind and needy burglars, then, I suppose that explains quite a lot as well.

Nah, it's US foreign policy in a nutshell.

The paranoia of the US Hive Mind.

[Twoflower]

When I was in Glasgow I felt a million times safer walking alone at night then I ever have walking alone at night in Michigan or any state in America.

[Pappa]

But, I do know it is worth the peace of mind, mental well-being, and privacy of my wife, and my child, and god damn right I'll fucking kill the sonofabitch that threatens them, and I don't think I ought to be burdened with the responsibility of determining what their "intention" is (whether to take a tv or rape my wife or kidnap my child). The worst intent on their part ought to be presumed, and the burden should be on them to prove otherwise, and if they don't and I take my "rounders" bat and shove it in their ear, then I ought to get a medal.

If you did that in the UK, you'd end up in prison without question.

[Coito ergo sum]

But, I do know it is worth the peace of mind, mental well-being, and privacy of my wife, and my child, and god damn right I'll fucking kill the sonofabitch that threatens them, and I don't think I ought to be burdened with the responsibility of determining what their "intention" is (whether to take a tv or rape my wife or kidnap my child). The worst intent on their part ought to be presumed, and the burden should be on them to prove otherwise, and if they don't and I take my "rounders" bat and shove it in their ear, then I ought to get a medal.

If you did that in the UK, you'd end up in prison without question.

That's a shame. I would think that someone breaking into your home at night while a man's wife and child were in the home (where they should be entitled to sleep through the night peacefully) ought to allow a man to defend himself and his loved ones. If that's a criminal offense in Britain, then I feel very sorry for the citizens of your country. It seems you are at the mercy of those who would invade your homes.

[Feck]

I've caught burglars in my home , I wanted to hit them with a stick ,I never picked up a serious blade , I definitely did not feel the need to apply lethal force ,One of the reasons was that It never occurred to me that they would be armed with much more than a knife (not a problem ) . I didn't hurt them (maybe should have ) But there was no reason for anyone to lose their life , If it had happened in America I think it would have been much more likely someone would ......

[Pappa]

But, I do know it is worth the peace of mind, mental well-being, and privacy of my wife, and my child, and god damn right I'll fucking kill the sonofabitch that threatens them, and I don't think I ought to be burdened with the responsibility of determining what their "intention" is (whether to take a tv or rape my wife or kidnap my child). The worst intent on their part ought to be presumed, and the burden should be on them to prove otherwise, and if they don't and I take my "rounders" bat and shove it in their ear, then I ought to get a medal.

If you did that in the UK, you'd end up in prison without question.

That's a shame. I would think that someone breaking into your home at night while a man's wife and child were in the home (where they should be entitled to sleep through the night peacefully) ought to allow a man to defend himself and his loved ones. If that's a criminal offense in Britain, then I feel very sorry for the citizens of your country. It seems you are at the mercy of those who would invade your homes.

You're allowed to defend yourself using "reasonable force" (which may involve the death of the attacker). Killing someone on the assumption that they might intend to harm you is not regarded as reasonable at all.