Republicans to cut $4,000,000,000,000 over 10 years

[Coito ergo sum]

That seems really weird. Here in Florida, the uninsured can get this kind of health coverage: http://healthinsuranceinfo.net/getinsur ... r-florida/ Under the plan called "Cover Florida." The monthly premiums are in the realm of prices for cable television, and it is available for those who can't afford or can't get insurance otherwise. Moreover, if one gets injured, nobody is denied care.

Moreover, I've seen similar stories from "universal" healthcare countries where people don't get care, or die waiting for it.

[Seth]

Just look up the Nixon quote on the creation of HMO's, the wonderment of the realization of the Capitalist MIRACLE, "You mean we can PROFIT from denying medical care?".

Who is denied medical care?

Ostrich syndrome?

Provides one of the most descriptive records of the horrors of HMO medicine during the 1990s, with numerous stories of individuals who were denied care or had to fight their HMOs for coverage of medical services. Court and Smith make a compelling case for the absurdity of a health-care system based on the concept of minimizing care to increase profits and please shareholders. They reveal how and why most HMOs have broken their early promises to control costs and reduce the number of uninsured Americans

Um...I hate to point this out, but none of those people are being denied medical care.

They are merely being denied medical health insurance payment for their medical care.

Absolutely nothing in the HMO contract, or the law, prohibits any person who is denied coverage of a particular condition by their HMO from simply going to a doctor and obtaining treatment for that condition at their own expense.

Indeed, in many cases, someone who has a condition not covered by their HMO can simply walk into a hospital and request care and they will receive it, often at no or low cost, because there are many, many charitable and public hospitals whose mandate includes providing care without regard to ability to pay.

Nobody, and I mean nobody in the US is "denied care" for any reason other than that they cannot afford to pay for it, or that the care they need simply does not exist, and there are plenty of charitable resources and other avenues for funding extraordinary medical needs that make the number of people who genuinely cannot afford basic medical care very, very few in number.

Can everyone afford the very best health care on the planet in every instance? Of course not. But unlike socialized medicine as in the UK or even Canada, where the government can and does flatly deny medical care to people, which results in some cases in the patient coming to the United States in order to receive the very best medical care available on the planet in a timely fashion, on demand. In the US, someone who is "denied" coverage (not care) by their HMO (because the condition is not covered by the contract or exceeds the monetary limits in the contract) can get any kind of medical care they desire at any time of the day or night, usually almost immediately, simply by selecting a medical care provider and making an appointment to be seen. Yes, they have to pay for it, but so what? TANSTAAFL.

[Warren Dew]

As most who DON'T get their history from Texas schoolbooks know, insurance actually began as human beings supporting each other, with the community pitching in to help rebuild when a family suffered a catastrophe.

As most who don't get their history from Stalinist propaganda know, there was nothing government mandated about such help.

With the transition from a barter society to money, this evolved into mutual protection societies and co-ops, into which members paid and could look to for funds in case of need.

Indeed - they were the earliest form of corporations, the essence of capitalism.

[egbert]

Universal Health care is actually not insurance. Insurance allocates and distributes risk. Universal healthcare allocates cost, but not risk.

Duh. Howcum here in Canada I get billed by the guvmint for "Ontario Health INSURANCE premium"?

Just look up the Nixon quote on the creation of HMO's, the wonderment of the realization of the Capitalist MIRACLE, "You mean we can PROFIT from denying medical care?".

Who is denied medical care?

One of the old tricks from the Fundy debating arsenal - feigning ignorance when convenient.
Here's a little tidbit from the Cleft Palate Foundation.

What do I do if my insurance carrier/HMO denies coverage for necessary treatment?
Unfortunately, this situation is very common across the country, particularly under managed care.

Here's what a child born with cleft palate looks like:




And here are the excuses the nice, kind loving capitalist swinefuck at your HMO will give as
reasons for denying coverage:

What if my insurance carrier/HMO calls these procedures “cosmetic”?

What if my insurance carrier/HMO calls these procedures “dental”?

What if my insurance carrier/HMO calls this condition “pre-existing”?

http://www.cleftline.org/publications/insurance


Capitalists just love this, because HMO profits, dividends, share price all go up. Hooray for wealth building! Why should they pay for cleft palate surgery - if the kid wasn't born rich, tough shit. After all, if you divide the cost among the populace, it might be ten cents each, and you know how they think they should be exempt from taxes, along with business owners.
Of course, should they have a child with cleft palate, well, that's a whole different matter! Where's the fucking state with the FINEST surgeon money can buy? Is it tax deductible too?

[Seth]

Universal Health care is actually not insurance. Insurance allocates and distributes risk. Universal healthcare allocates cost, but not risk.

Duh. Howcum here in Canada I get billed by the guvmint for "Ontario Health INSURANCE premium"?

Because your government is propagandizing the ignorami and wants you to believe their lies, of course. Just because government says this is that, doesn't mean it actually is that. Usually it's something else, and has been renamed to make it more politically palatable. Imagine the reaction if the bill you got was titled "Ontario Mandatory Tax Contribution for Other People's Health Care." That's what it actually is, in most cases, but nobody's going to buy that, so they put a pretty bow on it and call it something all warm and fuzzy to allow the liberals to live in their delusions.

Just look up the Nixon quote on the creation of HMO's, the wonderment of the realization of the Capitalist MIRACLE, "You mean we can PROFIT from denying medical care?".

Who is denied medical care?

One of the old tricks from the Fundy debating arsenal - feigning ignorance when convenient.
Here's a little tidbit from the Cleft Palate Foundation.

What do I do if my insurance carrier/HMO denies coverage for necessary treatment?
Unfortunately, this situation is very common across the country, particularly under managed care.

Here's what a child born with cleft palate looks like:[/quote]

And that's my problem how, exactly? There's a bunch of kids in foreign third-world countries who have cleft palates, which by the way are not life-threatening usually, who are treated by Doctors Without Borders and other charitable groups who get voluntary donations.


And here are the excuses the nice, kind loving capitalist swinefuck at your HMO will give as
reasons for denying coverage:

What if my insurance carrier/HMO calls these procedures “cosmetic”?

What if my insurance carrier/HMO calls these procedures “dental”?

What if my insurance carrier/HMO calls this condition “pre-existing”?

Buy better insurance, or pay for the treatment yourself, out of your own pocket. It's your kid, don't you care about your children's well-being enough to put your own money on the line?

Capitalists just love this, because HMO profits, dividends, share price all go up. Hooray for wealth building! Why should they pay for cleft palate surgery - if the kid wasn't born rich, tough shit.

Darn all that charitable health care for the poor and indigent anyway! It just so soundly debunks your horseshit.

After all, if you divide the cost among the populace, it might be ten cents each, and you know how they think they should be exempt from taxes, along with business owners.

Fallacious appeal to pity. You have yet to provide a reasoned and rational argument as to why some other person's kid with a cleft palate is the responsibility of anyone else to fix.

Of course, should they have a child with cleft palate, well, that's a whole different matter! Where's the fucking state with the FINEST surgeon money can buy? Is it tax deductible too?

If you have a kid with a cleft palate, you should probably work really hard and search out low-cost charitable resources to help you deal with your problems and not shuffle the off on other people.

That some people can afford to pay for it themselves only says that they have worked hard and saved up against such contingencies, not that you are entitled to what is theirs just because you've suffered some misfortune.

[MrJonno]

That some people can afford to pay for it themselves only says that they have worked hard and saved up against such contingencies, not that you are entitled to what is theirs just because you've suffered some misfortune.

Or even better take a fortune of the tax payer in farming subsidies and then call it hard work

[Coito ergo sum]

Universal Health care is actually not insurance. Insurance allocates and distributes risk. Universal healthcare allocates cost, but not risk.

Duh. Howcum here in Canada I get billed by the guvmint for "Ontario Health INSURANCE premium"?

I can't answer that question for sure, but I suspect its for the same reason that the word health insurance is confused with health care.

An insurance policy is where you pay a premium in proportion to a risk in exchange for the promise of the insurer to pay you money in the case that particular risk comes to fruition.

Basically, if everyone in the country is covered, you're just adding up the cost of health care and allocating the cost IRRESPECTIVE of risk. You allocate the cost based on ability to pay. So, it's not really "insurance" in the true sense of the word.

[egbert]

Universal Health care is actually not insurance. Insurance allocates and distributes risk. Universal healthcare allocates cost, but not risk.

Duh. Howcum here in Canada I get billed by the guvmint for "Ontario Health INSURANCE premium"?

I can't answer that question for sure, but I suspect its for the same reason that the word health insurance is confused with health care.

Duh. Right - like as if Government would know anything about Insurance! Especially since we have a right-wingnut Harper Government!

Basically, if everyone in the country is covered, you're just adding up the cost of health care and allocating the cost IRRESPECTIVE of risk. You allocate the cost based on ability to pay. So, it's not really "insurance" in the true sense of the word.

Like how Car Insurance works, eh?

[Seth]

That some people can afford to pay for it themselves only says that they have worked hard and saved up against such contingencies, not that you are entitled to what is theirs just because you've suffered some misfortune.

Or even better take a fortune of the tax payer in farming subsidies and then call it hard work

[Coito ergo sum]

Like how Car Insurance works, eh?

Not everyone has to have car insurance. And, car insurance is priced based on risk, not based on an allocation of cost. So, no, not like how car insurance works. In universal health care systems people don't pay premiums based on risk, they pay based on income or some other metric of ability to pay. Car insurance is based on risk.

[egbert]

Unless you have substantial valuable assets to protect, insurance is just a scam.

But it's a VOLUNTARY scam,

If you think it's VOLUNTARY, try getting a mortgage or a car loan after telling the lender you're not buying the VOLUNTARY insurance! What was that word you used - "dumbfuck"?

Pay cash in full and the car salesman will let you drive off the lot with out a second thought.

If everyone waited to buy a car until they had the cash, there wouldn't be a car maker left in business.

You really should write a "Complete Idiot's Guide to Finance" - you're eminently qualified!

[MrJonno]

I always thought insurance is about shared risk, you pay $1000 into your policy, you may get back from that 0, $1000 or ,$1000 0000. The majority of people will obviously get back less than they paid into it but thats the basis of all insurance

[Seth]

Unless you have substantial valuable assets to protect, insurance is just a scam.

But it's a VOLUNTARY scam,

If you think it's VOLUNTARY, try getting a mortgage or a car loan after telling the lender you're not buying the VOLUNTARY insurance! What was that word you used - "dumbfuck"?

Pay cash in full and the car salesman will let you drive off the lot with out a second thought.

If everyone waited to buy a car until they had the cash, there wouldn't be a car maker left in business.

You really should write a "Complete Idiot's Guide to Finance" - you're eminently qualified!

Yet another straw man. And a red herring. The point being that if you buy a car with someone else's money, they may condition the loan on your having full coverage insurance to protect THEIR car until you finish paying for it. That's not a legal mandate, it's a contractual obligation you voluntarily agree to. If you pay cash for a car, the dealer doesn't give a fuck whether you have insurance or not and will give you the keys and let you drive off the lot. Now, you may be violating the law requiring you to have mandatory liability insurance, but that, as I said before, is part of the problem.

[Seth]

I always thought insurance is about shared risk, you pay $1000 into your policy, you may get back from that 0, $1000 or ,$1000 0000. The majority of people will obviously get back less than they paid into it but thats the basis of all insurance

Exactly correct, but the point here is that it's VOLUNTARY shared risk. You get to pick which risk pool you enter, and you can choose not to enter any risk pool if you like.

Obamacare mandates that EVERYONE jump in the pool and pay for everyone else's health care, even if they don't want to do so, don't need to do so, and never make use of the benefits.

The former is moral and ethical, the latter is not.

[MrJonno]

Exactly correct, but the point here is that it's VOLUNTARY shared risk. You get to pick which risk pool you enter, and you can choose not to enter any risk pool if you like.

You obviously have some choice in the risks to your health but most of them are out of your control. Most of these genetic risks aren't understood but one day they probably will be. When that happens health insurance anywhere will be a dead industry, if you are 'low' risk people won't bother getting insurance for it, if you are high risk you won't be able to afford it