march for the alternative, anti-cuts protest

[Seth]

The Soviet Union and Cuba, you say? You are refering to communist military dictatorships, you know, not socialist democracies.

Socialist democracies inevitably become communist military dictatorships when the OPM runs out and starvation and social unrest loom.

You are funny seth

Glad you think so. I don't mind entertaining morons from time to time.

[AnInconvenientScotsman]

The Soviet Union and Cuba, you say? You are refering to communist military dictatorships, you know, not socialist democracies.

Socialist democracies inevitably become communist military dictatorships when the OPM runs out and starvation and social unrest loom.

Examples?

Soviet Union, Communist China, Kampuchea, Venezuela, Nicaragua, Greece, Spain, Portugal, France, UK, ...just pick any socialist society where the OPM has run out, or is running out, and you'll find increasingly authoritarian government action as the elites in government attempt to maintain power and control and put down civil unrest caused by the failure of the socialist government to provide the largess it promised in perpetuity.

Bullshit, plain and simple. China was never a socialist democracy, neither was the Soviet Union. Following a protracted civil war, the CCP came to power in China and it's been the same ever since. Similarly, there was not transition phase through social democracy in the Soviet Union. I'll have to actually look into the South American countries.

Furthermore, Greece, Spain, Portugal, France and the UK are not and never have been socialist democracies. They have been ruled in the past by social democratic parties, but are not institutionally socialist. The UK in particular is moving towards GREATER democracy, with reform of the second chamber proposed and a referendum on a more proportional voting system to be held on May 5th.

[Feck]

I'm just waiting for Seth to forget himself and blurt out that we are all Godless Commies ..... Have we or have we not ever been a member of the communist party ? ... Do we know any one who is ? I s'pose if Seth is as senile as some of his posts recently then we should just ignore his opinions like non- white nurses do to the old racists in Care homes .

[Pappa]

I'm just waiting for Seth to forget himself and blurt out that we are all Godless Commies ..... Have we or have we not ever been a member of the communist party ? ... Do we know any one who is ? I s'pose if Seth is as senile as some of his posts recently then we should just ignore his opinions like non- white nurses do to the old racists in Care homes .

I used to have a Lenin badge.

[AnInconvenientScotsman]

Don't like Gideon Osborne? Must be a commie

[Seth]

I'm just waiting for Seth to forget himself and blurt out that we are all Godless Commies ..... Have we or have we not ever been a member of the communist party ? ... Do we know any one who is ? I s'pose if Seth is as senile as some of his posts recently then we should just ignore his opinions like non- white nurses do to the old racists in Care homes .

I have no idea of you're a "Godless Commie" or not, nor do I care. Your ad homs are noted.

But the facts are clear, socialist systems always and inevitably fail on loose fiscal policy, as Tytler predicted. It's an economic fact that socialist societies devolve into authoritarian regimes as the OPM runs out. They can do nothing else.

They promise government largess to the non-productive dependent class, and depend on the productive class to support the dependent class. Eventually, once all the excess capital in the system has been used up after being taxed away from the capital investors, and once all the natural resources which can be sold on the capitalist free market have been exhausted, the burden on the productive class becomes unbearable, and they give up trying to generate wealth because they are tired of supporting an ever-growing dependent class who see the labor and property of the productive class as an entitlement that can be seized for the use of the dependent class at will.

Once the productive class gives up and decides to become members of the dependent class, as well they should, the society quickly begins to fail as the available sources of revenue to provide the promised entitlements dries up.

The dependent class quickly becomes angry at the perceived betrayal of the government, which promised to take care of them in perpetuity, and social unrest becomes worse. The government resorts to ever-more authoritarian practices, and propaganda becomes the tool by which government tries to sway public opinion. But nobody's producing any taxable wealth, and food and other basic necessities are in short supply as workers rightfully decide that they are not about to labor endlessly and fruitlessly for others while getting nothing for themselves.

Factories close, strikes become endemic, riots and murder run rampant, and people begin to starve. The government becomes more and more totalitarian as it tries to maintain power and control, and it begins shooting rioters and looters and executing "counterrevolutionaries" and traitors to the increasingly strident and absolutist Marxist vision for society.

Those who refuse to work are taken to the killing fields and are executed, their bodies left to rot as an example to others. But none of this changes the determination of the people to reject such totalitarian efforts to enslave them and steal the fruits of their own labor. As society collapses, free markets begin to emerge in the form of barter and trade among individuals, and participants evade government scrutiny and taxation in order to survive.

The government then either collapses because there's no one left to run it, or it becomes a brutal communist dictatorship that kills millions with impunity, like Stalin and Mao, in order to cow the rest of the population into proletarian servitude.

That's the inevitable course of all socialist societies that disrespect individual rights and private property. It's simple economic fact that all the delusional political propaganda in the world won't change. It's a function of human nature that rhetoric cannot change. Always has been, always will be.

[Feck]

You assume that the productive class is the class that OWNS things you assume that managers,ceos , bankers, stock brokers and futures traders, tax consultants etc PRODUCE rather than parasitize .

You also can't tell an an-hom from an implied ad hom . Also you can't tell the difference between the Us invasion of Iraq and the US helping the population of Libya . one was an invasion of a sovereign state that had few links to ant-western terrorists and the other a country and a dictator that dropped big fat Americans from 20,000 feet over MY country and whose rebels, supported by the intelligentsia of the country cried out for a no fly zone and air support .
Your hypocritical posts about how you are respectful of Christians have been noted especially in the light of your BULLSHIT posts on ...... well almost everything else you say ... sorry Seth but you do actually make about as much sense as Charlton Heston and Reagan in their later years , Probably The only Merkin with less credibility than you just now is Charlie Sheen . Shit at least he is funny . So go ahead foam at the mouth about socialism all you like it's only you who looks rabid ( Sorry it might not be Hydrophobia it's probably just drool ).

[Seth]

You assume that the productive class is the class that OWNS things

Yes, that's a valid presumption. The productive class actually...well...PRODUCES things, and those things belong to them.

The dependent class produces nothing, it just consumes.

you assume that managers,ceos , bankers, stock brokers and futures traders, tax consultants etc PRODUCE rather than parasitize .

Yes, that's a valid presumption. They fill a free market demand for services, and therefore they are producing wealth. Without bankers, stock brokers, future traders and tax consultants, banks wouldn't exist, stocks would not be sold, futures would not be traded, and taxes wouldn't be prepared by professionals conversant with tax law. Society evidently needs all those services, since they exist in a capitalist economy. Nothing "parasitical" about them. They produce wealth just like any other productive class member does.

You also can't tell an an-hom from an implied ad hom .

There's no difference, really. One is overt, the other implied. They are still both arguments directed at the individual, not at the debate.

Also you can't tell the difference between the Us invasion of Iraq and the US helping the population of Libya.

Sure I can. But can you?

one was an invasion of a sovereign state that had few links to ant-western terrorists

Which is utterly irrelevant, since President Bush asked Congress for authorization to invade Iraq a second time, in order to enforce the provisions of the cease-fire and UN mandates that Saddam refused to comply with for a dozen years. Our laws only require that Congress declare war, not the President. The wisdom or appropriateness of a Congressional declaration of war is entirely vested in Congress, and our Congress is not constrained by any international authority or body in any way whatsoever when it comes to declaring war.

and the other a country and a dictator that dropped big fat Americans from 20,000 feet over MY country and whose rebels, supported by the intelligentsia of the country cried out for a no fly zone and air support .

Which Congress might have been willing to authorize, except that Obama didn't bother to ask them, as the Constitution requires. He therefore committed an unlawful act in levying war without Congressional authorization.

Your hypocritical posts about how you are respectful of Christians have been noted especially in the light of your BULLSHIT posts on ...... well almost everything else you say

I love it when nitwits like you get all flustered when your sacred cows are slaughtered before your eyes and you have to resort to OT ad homs rather than reason and intelligent debate.

... sorry Seth but you do actually make about as much sense as Charlton Heston and Reagan in their later years

That would be a function of your lack of cognitive abilities, not a reflection on my rhetorical skills.

[Feck]

No Seth you are wrong when asked what you make the answer is not 10% money is not production and speculation is not a service . I presume that since you think that a capitalist society is a meritocracy that you would be in favour of the abolition of inheritance . Because you seem to say that the super rich have earned their wealth but accrued no responsibility ? You trash the idea of equal opportunities claim we are seeking equal out comes but you know that is a lie .

Your political and social ideas can be summed up as JACK (that's Fuck you Jack I'm doing fine ).Honestly I'd be prepared to bet you would be a fundamentalist Christian, (you sound like the morans on Rapture Ready) but all that caring for others and charity stuff just makes you sick .

[JimC]

I'm just waiting for Seth to forget himself and blurt out that we are all Godless Commies ..... Have we or have we not ever been a member of the communist party ? ... Do we know any one who is ? I s'pose if Seth is as senile as some of his posts recently then we should just ignore his opinions like non- white nurses do to the old racists in Care homes .

I used to have a Lenin badge.

I used to have a Chairman Mao badge, which I wore on my beret...

[Rum]

I'm just waiting for Seth to forget himself and blurt out that we are all Godless Commies ..... Have we or have we not ever been a member of the communist party ? ... Do we know any one who is ? I s'pose if Seth is as senile as some of his posts recently then we should just ignore his opinions like non- white nurses do to the old racists in Care homes .

I used to have a Lenin badge.

I used to have a Chairman Mao badge, which I wore on my beret...

I still have a peace/ban the bomb badge. Actually it is currently on my bedside table!

[MrJonno]

This, of course, is based on the entirely false presumption that all farmers ask for or accept government largess.

I, for one, have never asked for or received a single dime of government farm subsidy money.

The entire food market both in the US and Europe is one big government run subsidy, with government backed minimum prices + direct money to farmers often to do nothing.

You cannot be a farmer and be part of 'productive class' unless you consider being a government employee productive (which in my opinion you can be).
Basically a typical farmer takes more tax payers money than a crack whore who spends their entire lives on benefits.

Its pure hypocracy to be a farmer and then claim to love the free market when its nothing more than one big government scam, one I would gladly see shut down even as someone who believes in society and the public sector

[Seth]

No Seth you are wrong when asked what you make the answer is not 10% money is not production and speculation is not a service .

Sure it is. It makes speculators and their investors money, therefore it is a valuable service. Money is just a place-holder for goods, a temporary expedient of trade and accounting in the exchange of goods and services. Speculators don't eat money, nor do their investors. They exchange that money for goods. And somebody has to produce those goods, now don't they? The demand produced by the money earned by speculators in a free market is the wealth, not the speculation. But without the speculation the money would not be earned and would not be available for spending, which would result in the demand for the goods being reduced, and thus a reduction in the wealth generated by the economy.

Your abysmal understanding of economic fundamentals would be amusing if it weren't so pathetic and widespread.

I presume that since you think that a capitalist society is a meritocracy that you would be in favour of the abolition of inheritance .

Absolutely not. Nothing in the definition of capitalism requires that every new entrant to the markets begin at the bottom of the economic ladder. That's a socialist conceit. Free markets work better, and greater wealth is produced when companies do not have to start from scratch with each succeeding generation, and wealth in individual hands doesn't care, really, which particular hands it's in, because it gets recirculated to meet the needs and desires of the current possessor regardless of how they acquired it. Money is fungible, you see.

Because you seem to say that the super rich have earned their wealth but accrued no responsibility

Responsibility to whom? For what? By what rational argument? Anyone who earns their wealth lawfully has an absolute right to enjoy the fruits of that labor. Even Marx insisted on that. What "responsibility" do you think the "super rich" have by virtue of the fact that they are much better at earning money than you are?

You trash the idea of equal opportunities claim we are seeking equal out comes but you know that is a lie .

No, it's the absolute truth, as your post proves. You are jealous of the economic success of others, and you want what they have, but you don't want to work as hard or as long as they have to acquire it, you just want to take it from them because you want it and they have it and you think that's unfair to you. That's the classic Marxist/socialist mindset. Here's a clue: Nobody owes you anything. The world doesn't owe you a living, you have to make that for yourself. Nature doesn't give a flying fuck whether you live or die, nor do I. Adapt or die.

Your political and social ideas can be summed up as JACK (that's Fuck you Jack I'm doing fine ).

Depends on whether you are a productive member of society, or a member of the non-productive dependent class who is trying to steal what's mine, what I've worked for, so that you don't have to work as hard. If you're a member of the productive class, I'll trade with you and even, once my Maslovian needs have been satisfied, may agree to assist you for altruistic and charitable purposes if you ask me nicely.

But if you're a member of the indolent dependent class who demands the fruits of my labor as something that you're entitled to take from me, well, yeah, fuck you, Jack, you can starve in the gutter for all I care. And if you come to me and try to take what I worked to achieve because your jealous and envious of my economic condition, I'll shoot you down like the rabid dog you are without a second's hesitation, and I'll be doing society a service by removing a leech sucking at the lifeblood of the economy in the process. I don't abide robbers, ever.

On the other hand, if you come to me with a proposition for innovation and hard work that will generate wealth and make you into a member of the productive class, and you have a good idea that appears profitable for us, then I'll be happy to consider investing in your idea and will welcome you as a fellow member of society who is worthy of respect and consideration. And if you're truly helpless and needy and cannot provide for yourself, just ask me for help and I'll do what I can to preserve your life.

Honestly I'd be prepared to bet you would be a fundamentalist Christian, (you sound like the morans on Rapture Ready) but all that caring for others and charity stuff just makes you sick .

How much you want to bet?

[Seth]

I'm just waiting for Seth to forget himself and blurt out that we are all Godless Commies ..... Have we or have we not ever been a member of the communist party ? ... Do we know any one who is ? I s'pose if Seth is as senile as some of his posts recently then we should just ignore his opinions like non- white nurses do to the old racists in Care homes .

I used to have a Lenin badge.

I used to have a Chairman Mao badge, which I wore on my beret...

I still have a peace/ban the bomb badge. Actually it is currently on my bedside table!

I have a copy of Chairman Mao's Little Red Book, which I keep to remind me of the absolute fucking evil that socialism is and what it inevitably produces by way of human death and misery, and why I must fight against socialism tooth and nail, to my last breath, in the interests of life and liberty.

[Seth]

This, of course, is based on the entirely false presumption that all farmers ask for or accept government largess.

I, for one, have never asked for or received a single dime of government farm subsidy money.

The entire food market both in the US and Europe is one big government run subsidy, with government backed minimum prices + direct money to farmers often to do nothing.

Which statement demonstrates that your knowledge of the system of agriculture in the US comes from a microscopic direct examination of the inside of your colon.

You cannot be a farmer and be part of 'productive class' unless you consider being a government employee productive (which in my opinion you can be).
Basically a typical farmer takes more tax payers money than a crack whore who spends their entire lives on benefits.

There's plenty of farm subsidies to go around, that much is true, but they are literally all the product of Progressive politicians pandering for votes. Hell, there's a subsidy out there for black (and only black) "farmers" who have so much as "tried" to farm. They can get $50,000 in government cash merely for trying and failing to successfully farm. Guess who set that little gravy train up? Clue: It wasn't the Republicans.

Its pure hypocracy to be a farmer and then claim to love the free market when its nothing more than one big government scam, one I would gladly see shut down even as someone who believes in society and the public sector

I'm fine with eliminating farm subsidies because that means my cows will be worth much, much more, since cutting such subsidies will largely affect only the large corporate farms, not little guys like me who take no farm subsidies.

You and I agree that government meddling in agriculture is a Very Bad Thing. I'm all for an unregulated agricultural free market, insofar as such regulations attempt redistributive social engineering and economic winner-picking. That's WHY I've never taken a government subsidy, so that I could maintain my ethical foundation and strength. It's wrong to take a crop subsidy, and it's harmful and damaging to our economy and our society, and it fosters and creates government dependence, which is what Progressives want. I choose to deny them my obedience and my dependence by refusing their blandishments and largess.