Two Types of Atheist?

[Xamonas Chegwé]

I normally shy away from dichotomising people. In my view, there are two kinds of people in the world and I am one of the type that doesn't dichotomise!

But, when it comes to atheism, I really think that there are two distinct groups - based on the individual's personal experience: -

• Those that spent a part of their lives belonging to a religious faith and went through a personal revelation and rejection of that faith.
• Those that have never been a part of any religion.

Of course there are a few blurry lines here. Some people may not follow any orthodox religion but might be caught up in new-age woo or the like. Some may be raised nominally by their parents in a religion but it never really takes. But broadly, I think that most of us fall into one of these two groups.

I also think it is difficult to put oneself into the mindset of the opposite group. Something that Animavore posted brought this home to me; he said that he felt cheated because his family had never taken religion seriously and had not had to go through any traumatic soul-searching before coming to terms with atheism - he simply had never seriously considered the idea of god to be either real or useful. He said that he wished he could have battled with his faith like Chris Hitchens did.

To me, this seems like a horrendous thing to wish for! I am firmly in the first group. I was raised by christian parents and wasted years of my life trying to believe in all the crap that was programmed into me from an early age. I would never wish the process of deconversion on anyone that had not had to suffer the overbearing guilt, peer-pressure and wilful self-denial that religion dumps on one. That Ani would envy that process seems absurd, yet it stems from the simple fact that he cannot know what it is like to be a part of a religion - not really - a fact which he feels (or so I think) makes him less able to address those that are still in its clutches.

So am I right? Is there a definite division here? Can either side ever understand the way the other sees the world? And does it matter?

Out of interest, I have added a poll.

[FBM]

Right. I guess I'll have to do it myself, then.

alabama-baconmeatloaf.jpg (63.84 KiB) Viewed 492 times

OK, now that there's bacon in the thread, I voted that I used to have religion.

[Bella Fortuna]

I think it is easier for those who were once part of it to understand and empathise with how people still in its clutches think. It's much easier for me, never having believed, to dismiss the mindset of a believer as absurd and ridiculous. I can understand intellectually (sometimes) how religion might appeal to people at times, but I'll never truly grasp how they get sucked into it.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

I think it is easier for those who were once part of it to understand and empathise with how people still in its clutches think. It's much easier for me, never having believed, to dismiss the mindset of a believer as absurd and ridiculous. I can understand intellectually (sometimes) how religion might appeal to people at times, but I'll never truly grasp how they get sucked into it.

I don't think I was ever sucked in. I just woke up in the middle of it one day. I can't remember a time before I thought it was all true. I can't imagine the mindset of someone wanting to adopt that kind of belief out of choice - although it is easier to understand someone swapping one set of bollocks beliefs for another.

[FBM]

I think it is easier for those who were once part of it to understand and empathise with how people still in its clutches think. It's much easier for me, never having believed, to dismiss the mindset of a believer as absurd and ridiculous. I can understand intellectually (sometimes) how religion might appeal to people at times, but I'll never truly grasp how they get sucked into it.

An analogy may help. Imagine being young, naive and inexperienced, falling in love with that certain person who seems to have everything you'll ever need to live happily ever after. In your eyes s/he can do no wrong and will be with you forever, and you easily rationalize everything that others could see as a fault or weakness. Of course, with a real person, that dream will eventually fade or be shattered once the romantic illusion is played out. With a mythical "person", though, you can escape ever having the illusion shattered, since there's nobody there but your imagination in the first place.

[Rum]

I am of the first type, but one thing is for certain, neither type is going to heaven!

Slightly more seriously, yes, I think it helps me top understand the mindset of believers - in my case even fundies given I was briefly pretty fundy myself. It also exasperates me because I know how shaky even a fundy can be in their 'faith' at times.

[Thinking Aloud]

but I'll never truly grasp how they get sucked into it.

Getting sucked in isn't something that happens to people who are immersed in it from birth. If you'd been told the sky is green from the first day you noticed colours, by everyone around you, even though it wasn't the same colour as grass, and was the same colour as some things that were blue, the sky would be green. An odd shade, but green nonetheless.

[Pappa]

but I'll never truly grasp how they get sucked into it.

Getting sucked in isn't something that happens to people who are immersed in it from birth. If you'd been told the sky is green from the first day you noticed colours, by everyone around you, even though it wasn't the same colour as grass, and was the same colour as some things that were blue, the sky would be green. An odd shade, but green nonetheless.

TANGENT ALERT!

In some languages the sky is green, or the grass blue.

[Atheist-Lite]

but I'll never truly grasp how they get sucked into it.

Getting sucked in isn't something that happens to people who are immersed in it from birth. If you'd been told the sky is green from the first day you noticed colours, by everyone around you, even though it wasn't the same colour as grass, and was the same colour as some things that were blue, the sky would be green. An odd shade, but green nonetheless.

TANGENT ALERT!

In some languages the sky is green, or the grass blue.

In the post-apocalyptic landscape of the future the sky will really be green and and the grass will really be blue.

[Santa_Claus]

you seem to presume that those "still in the clutches" of religion deserve some sympathy.

As far as I am concerned it is simply funny. and that's why I laugh at them.

[PsychoSerenity]

I can't imagine the mindset of someone wanting to adopt that kind of belief out of choice -

My beliefs were a matter of choice, though I suspect my situation isn't exactly usual - I'll try and explain it.

Imagine being young, naive and inexperienced, falling in love with that certain person who seems to have everything you'll ever need to live happily ever after. In your eyes s/he can do no wrong and will be with you forever, and you easily rationalize everything that others could see as a fault or weakness. Of course, with a real person, that dream will eventually fade or be shattered once the romantic illusion is played out. With a mythical "person", though, you can escape ever having the illusion shattered, since there's nobody there but your imagination in the first place.

I was young, naive etc. and after a troubled upbringing when I first fell in love it completely changed me. My whole understanding of reality, every aspect of my personality, I can't describe what it was like to find something good in the world. But before anything could happen we went our separate ways - and so the dream was never shattered.

During more difficult times when I was on the verge of suicide etc. I held on to that dream, I chose to see her as an angel. There were no gods or anything else involved but she definitely wasn't just a normal human being. I knew it was nonsense of course; I'd made it up myself. But I knew I couldn't know for certain that it wasn't true, and that tiny hope was just enough to get me through.

When I needed to feel safe, when I needed to escape from the world, it was easy to sink into daydreams and let myself believe that she was there for me. I talked to her, I imagined she was up in the stars at night, watching over me. It made me feel like everything would be ok.

I knew it would be better if I was strong enough to not need to believe, but I wasn't, so I did. Nowadays I am strong enough, and I have many more real life people to rely on, but I haven't burnt the bridges. For me it was a survival strategy, and it worked. I hope I'm never again in a situation where I need it, but if I am, she'll be there for me.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I think it is easier for those who were once part of it to understand and empathise with how people still in its clutches think. It's much easier for me, never having believed, to dismiss the mindset of a believer as absurd and ridiculous. I can understand intellectually (sometimes) how religion might appeal to people at times, but I'll never truly grasp how they get sucked into it.

I tend to be skeptical of just about anything. I abhor commercials because I see how they want to manipulate me. Political campaigns set my dentures on edge. And religions is worse that either of them.

[charlou]

I can't imagine the mindset of someone wanting to adopt that kind of belief out of choice -

My beliefs were a matter of choice, though I suspect my situation isn't exactly usual - I'll try and explain it.

Imagine being young, naive and inexperienced, falling in love with that certain person who seems to have everything you'll ever need to live happily ever after. In your eyes s/he can do no wrong and will be with you forever, and you easily rationalize everything that others could see as a fault or weakness. Of course, with a real person, that dream will eventually fade or be shattered once the romantic illusion is played out. With a mythical "person", though, you can escape ever having the illusion shattered, since there's nobody there but your imagination in the first place.

I was young, naive etc. and after a troubled upbringing when I first fell in love it completely changed me. My whole understanding of reality, every aspect of my personality, I can't describe what it was like to find something good in the world. But before anything could happen we went our separate ways - and so the dream was never shattered.

During more difficult times when I was on the verge of suicide etc. I held on to that dream, I chose to see her as an angel. There were no gods or anything else involved but she definitely wasn't just a normal human being. I knew it was nonsense of course; I'd made it up myself. But I knew I couldn't know for certain that it wasn't true, and that tiny hope was just enough to get me through.

When I needed to feel safe, when I needed to escape from the world, it was easy to sink into daydreams and let myself believe that she was there for me. I talked to her, I imagined she was up in the stars at night, watching over me. It made me feel like everything would be ok.

I knew it would be better if I was strong enough to not need to believe, but I wasn't, so I did. Nowadays I am strong enough, and I have many more real life people to rely on, but I haven't burnt the bridges. For me it was a survival strategy, and it worked. I hope I'm never again in a situation where I need it, but if I am, she'll be there for me.

This is actually really nice that you've made this place for yourself ... somehow more so as you're aware it's a fantasy (I gather? fuck, I'd hate to be responsible for destroying a useful fantasy ), but it's a positive place to go when you need to.

[charlou]

What a great topic and OP .. and some interesting replies so far ...

I've thought about this before too ...

In some ways my history of belief in a god and my experience with religion (two separate things, in my case) helps me understand theists .. but I think a good analogy to how I sometimes (not always) think about theists may be similar to the way a reformed smoker sometimes thinks about smokers, in which there is an element of "if I can kick it, why can't you?" and other such unhelpful thinking.

I do get angry with theists for their imposition of religion (as I said, distinct from belief in a god) onto me and others, for the abusive and delusional ideas and methods inherent in their belief.

I understand ex-theists and atheists better in general, these days. Better than I did years ago, and better than I understand theists now.

In some ways I envy those who've not been subjected to religion as I and others have, but personally, I wouldn't change my past because I appreciate how it gives me the insight I have today, and is part of who I am. Of course, if religion (and, better still, superstition and dogma in general) were not a part of human existence at all, then maybe I'd feel differently about that ... heh, actually, it wouldn't even be an issue

[Hermit]

Some may be raised nominally by their parents in a religion but it never really takes. ... raised by christian parents and wasted years of my life trying to believe in all the crap that was programmed into me from an early age.

That would be me. The moment I could think independently, I became a deist, and not many years later an atheist.

I don't think making a categorical distinction between atheists who have never been religious and those who have is particularly useful. Too many other factors overshadow it in regard to what determines views concerning theism and theists. To put it in other words, I'm thinking of a mixed bunch of lifelong atheists and ex-theists. Someone is tasked to ask each individual the same questions concerning their attitude in regard to theists, then, based on their answers, to determine who is a lifelong atheist and who is an ex-theist. I doubt that person would get it right much better than 50%.