Disaster capitalism

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Re: Disaster capitalism

Post by Wumbologist » Mon Mar 21, 2011 10:38 pm

Ian wrote:Going by Buffet's quotes above, he's just making a dispassioned prediction about the future of the Japanese market. That's what he does - make dispassioned predictions about economics.

I suppose he could've preceded those quotes with "I feel terribly sorry for the people in Japan affected by this awful disaster, and my heart goes out to them. Having said that, it will take some time to rebuild...etc." But is that really want we care to hear from Buffet? I honestly don't care about what his emotions say - I want to hear his economic analysis.

Well, I care about hearing his feelings. :ddpan:

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Re: Disaster capitalism

Post by PsychoSerenity » Mon Mar 21, 2011 10:47 pm

JOZeldenrust wrote:Optimal allocation of resources, just as Adam Smith described.
Well I wouldn't call it optimal - resources are allocated to wherever they are most profitable to those who are already wealthy. Those who find themselves in trouble are forced by their desperation to allow themselves to be screwed over more than they otherwise would be - and the system gets more and more unbalanced. You may well call that neutral, it's certainly very natural - Darwinian even - but in the 21st century with all our science, technology, and understanding of the world - how much longer should we put up with that?
[Disclaimer - if this is comes across like I think I know what I'm talking about, I want to make it clear that I don't. I'm just trying to get my thoughts down]

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Re: Disaster capitalism

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Mar 21, 2011 10:49 pm

Honda plants in the US are shutting down because they can't get parts from Japan. Things are not going to be better for most of us in the near future.
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Re: Disaster capitalism

Post by FBM » Mon Mar 21, 2011 11:18 pm

sandinista wrote:bunch of fucking parasites.

Warren Buffett: Japan Disaster Presents A 'Buying Opportunity'

DAEGU, South Korea (Reuters) - Billionaire investor Warren Buffett believes Japan's devastating earthquake is the kind of extraordinary event that creates a buying opportunity for shares in Japanese companies.

Japan, the world's third-largest economy, has been battling to bring an overheating nuclear plant under control after it was battered by the March 11 earthquake and tsunami that rattled global markets and prompted massive intervention in currency markets by the Group of Seven industrial nations.

"It will take some time to rebuild, but it will not change the economic future of Japan," Buffett said on Monday on a visit to a South Korean factory run by a company owned by one of his funds. "If I owned Japanese stocks, I would certainly not be selling them.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/03/2 ... =fb&src=sp

You might be interested in the work of Naomi Klein, if you haven't already read it. She's also pretty damn easy to look at. :tup:

http://www.naomiklein.org/main
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Re: Disaster capitalism

Post by JOZeldenrust » Tue Mar 22, 2011 12:05 am

Psychoserenity wrote:
JOZeldenrust wrote:Optimal allocation of resources, just as Adam Smith described.
Well I wouldn't call it optimal - resources are allocated to wherever they are most profitable to those who are already wealthy. Those who find themselves in trouble are forced by their desperation to allow themselves to be screwed over more than they otherwise would be - and the system gets more and more unbalanced. You may well call that neutral, it's certainly very natural - Darwinian even - but in the 21st century with all our science, technology, and understanding of the world - how much longer should we put up with that?
I'll readily admit that money makes it easier to accumulate more money, and also that people with power (money being a form of power) may use that power to accumulate more power at the expense of those without power. Humans aren't omnibenevolent beings.

However, the default economic transaction is one where both parties profit. Of course this is a simplified representation of economic reality, but in most cases the simplification is justified. No market is perfect, however, and those imperfections can be exploited for profit at the exense of others. Those cases should be prevented by adequate oversight, which is why we have governments. I don't think investing in a disaster struck region of the world is such an abuse of market imperfections. All parties involved will benefit from such transactions.

The invisible hand isn't an ideal. It isn't "the way it should be". It's the way rational agents act in an environment with limited resources. It applies to capitalist systems, but it applies to other systems as well. It is simply the way things work. We may not always like the result, but we're stuck with it, because we are at least partially rational agents, and the world we inhabit has limited resources. We can, however, use our non-economic resources - like the political power we wield through democratic representation - to offset the undesirable results of the allocation of our economic resources. We can use progressive taxation to offset the concentration of wealth to a few fortunate people, and we can enforce laws to prevent the powerful to enrich themselves at the expense of the powerless. We do that all the time, though maybe not to the extent I would like.

In tis specific case, though, the result of our economic system is pretty good. Japan gets rebuilt, and the investors supplying the means to do it get a nice revenue. Sometimes capitalism actually works.

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Re: Disaster capitalism

Post by .Morticia. » Tue Mar 22, 2011 12:39 am

I really dislike that "Disaster capitalism naomi klein" shit

The idea that capitalists collude is not supported by any evidence. The fact is that there are different major forces within capital that compete with each other.

Disaster capitalism is just opportunism, not any plan, and that's been happening for millenia.
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Re: Disaster capitalism

Post by Ian » Tue Mar 22, 2011 12:54 am

I read through a synopsis of "The Shock Doctrine" by Klein. A very interesting point, but she seems awfully quick to jump onto conspiracy theories. That automatically makes me suspicious of her reasoning. You're right that "disaster capitalism" is just opportunism.

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Re: Disaster capitalism

Post by .Morticia. » Tue Mar 22, 2011 1:07 am

If she wasn't moderately attractive and looked nice in front of a camera no one would have given her ideas a second thought.
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Re: Disaster capitalism

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Mar 22, 2011 1:15 am

.Morticia. wrote:If she wasn't moderately attractive and looked nice in front of a camera no one would have given her ideas a second thought.
I'm not seeing it.
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Re: Disaster capitalism

Post by .Morticia. » Tue Mar 22, 2011 1:21 am

it's the way the publishing industry works

it's about sales ans selling

they want authors they can sell
Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies. ~ Marx

Do you really think it is weakness that yields to temptation? I tell you that there are terrible temptations which it requires strength, strength and courage to yield to. ~ Oscar Wilde

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Re: Disaster capitalism

Post by FBM » Tue Mar 22, 2011 1:28 am

Uhm, btw, I didn't mention Klein because I'm a fan. A friend of mine mentioned her just a week or so ago and it seemed to be relevant to what sandinista was saying, that's all. I scanned over something she wrote and got the impression that she took a little substance and then sensationalized it to sell books. Trying to manufacture a meme for a name and a few bucks. SOP these days.



I would hit it, tho. :eddy:
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Re: Disaster capitalism

Post by Seth » Tue Mar 22, 2011 3:39 am

[quote="sandinista"]bunch of fucking parasites.

Warren Buffett: Japan Disaster Presents A 'Buying Opportunity'


So...let's see, you'd rather people with capital to invest NOT invest in Japan, in spite of the obvious fact that Japan is going to need all the capital and investment from outside the country they can possibly get in order to recover from this disaster? Yeah, that sounds mindlessly Marxist all right.

You evidently would rather that the Japanese suffer and starve in Marxist solidarity than for Capitalism to once again, as it always does, prove just what a bunch of morons Socialists and Marxists actually are. Let the proletarian working class starve to death and suffer privation and poverty in order to maintain the purity of the ideology and the political high-horse of the Marxist elite. Yah, now THERE'S a great way to help Japan recover from the disaster. I keep saying it, Marxism and Socialism are ideologies and architects of death and destruction on a massive scale, and whenever they rear their ugly heads, people die for the cause, even when they don't want to sacrifice themselves. Marxists are always happy for OTHER people to die for the cause. Selfish pricks never put themselves on the line though.

Marxism is SUCH an idiotic economic theory...
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Re: Disaster capitalism

Post by Seth » Tue Mar 22, 2011 3:43 am

HomerJay wrote:Have you seen the rumours about George Soros? Invests heavily in western oil companies in 2009, just as Gadaffi is being rehabilitated, pays El Baradei to stuff Mubarak in Egypt but not before he's moved his Libyan investments from western companies to russian and venezuelan oil companies just in time.
Maybe the military would be willing to mis-target one of those 112 cruise missiles and direct it to Soros' house when he's home for the weekend...and do liberty a favor.
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Re: Disaster capitalism

Post by Seth » Tue Mar 22, 2011 3:50 am

JOZeldenrust wrote:
sandinista wrote:bunch of fucking parasites.

Warren Buffett: Japan Disaster Presents A 'Buying Opportunity'

DAEGU, South Korea (Reuters) - Billionaire investor Warren Buffett believes Japan's devastating earthquake is the kind of extraordinary event that creates a buying opportunity for shares in Japanese companies.

Japan, the world's third-largest economy, has been battling to bring an overheating nuclear plant under control after it was battered by the March 11 earthquake and tsunami that rattled global markets and prompted massive intervention in currency markets by the Group of Seven industrial nations.

"It will take some time to rebuild, but it will not change the economic future of Japan," Buffett said on Monday on a visit to a South Korean factory run by a company owned by one of his funds. "If I owned Japanese stocks, I would certainly not be selling them.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/03/2 ... =fb&src=sp
So what if some investors profit from a disaster? The question should be whether the Japanese people suffer because of it. The answer is clearly "no, they don't." Because of investments in Japanese companies, most likely mostly companies in construction of infrastructure, those companies will have more means to quickly rebuild the infrastructure lost in the disaster. Because of it, the Japanese economy will be able to recuperate the loss in productivity more quickly.

Buffets advice isn't to make money off the misfortune of others, it's to make money by enabling those unfortunate others to get out of trouble.
The problem with explaining economic reality to Marxists is that they are too fucking stupid to understand that without the prospect of profit and return on investment, nobody with capital will invest, and the economy flounders when investment capital is withdrawn from the markets. That's why Venezuela is going downhill fast. Chavez seized a bunch of private property, like the ports and the oil companies, not to mention the press and TV stations, and "nationalized" them, and now the people who know how and where to drill for oil and run the ports are fleeing the country, along with all the capital Chavez needs to fund his socialist programs. He's going to end up with a hand-to-mouth subsistence-level agrarian society that can barely feed itself eventually.

Capitalism is going to give the big middle finger to Marxists because those who own the capital are not stupid, and they'll just move their money to some country that is friendlier to the prospect of profit and return on investment.

Fucking Marxist loons think people with money are going to just give it to them out of the goodness of their hearts. And no matter how many times Marxism fails, and people die and are murdered because of it, Marxists still don't get it.

Fucking lunatics.
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"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: Disaster capitalism

Post by Seth » Tue Mar 22, 2011 3:53 am

Psychoserenity wrote:
JOZeldenrust wrote:Optimal allocation of resources, just as Adam Smith described.
Well I wouldn't call it optimal - resources are allocated to wherever they are most profitable to those who are already wealthy. Those who find themselves in trouble are forced by their desperation to allow themselves to be screwed over more than they otherwise would be - and the system gets more and more unbalanced. You may well call that neutral, it's certainly very natural - Darwinian even - but in the 21st century with all our science, technology, and understanding of the world - how much longer should we put up with that?
Forever, because the alternative is universal poverty, starvation, misery and death on a global scale, if Marxism or socialism prevail.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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