chance

Post by **Xamonas Chegwé** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:33 pm

spinoza99 wrote: No, it's not turtles all the way. Actually, I believe the first turtle arose by chance, that was mind or intention/intelligence. The second turtle (the Big Bang) was the result of the first turtle's intention. The atheist on the other hand, by definition cannot believe that that the Big Bang was the result of intention.

So god can happen 'by chance' but a big bang cannot?

Post by **Mr P** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:34 pm

spinoza99 wrote:
Mr P wrote:
spinoza99 wrote:Then you would just have to ask where did the fabric of reality come from. By chance or not by chance?
Well in that case it's turtles all the way down.
No, it's not turtles all the way. Actually, I believe the first turtle arose by chance, that was mind or intention/intelligence. The second turtle (the Big Bang) was the result of the first turtle's intention. The atheist on the other hand, by definition cannot believe that that the Big Bang was the result of intention.

If the first turtle can arise by chance then, by your logic, so could the universe. I simply go for the most parsimonious option... not that I ike to close my mind to other options of course.

Post by **spinoza99** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:36 pm

Xamonas Chegwé wrote:
spinoza99 wrote: No, it's not turtles all the way. Actually, I believe the first turtle arose by chance, that was mind or intention/intelligence. The second turtle (the Big Bang) was the result of the first turtle's intention. The atheist on the other hand, by definition cannot believe that that the Big Bang was the result of intention.
So god can happen 'by chance' but a big bang cannot?

Yes, because God is immaterial. You can't order immaterial. Material can't order itself, because material has no knowledge, and no ability to coordinate with other material. If it does, where is that power located? You need an immaterial mind with power over the material to order material. That's God.

Post by **spinoza99** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:39 pm

Mr P wrote: If the first turtle can arise by chance then, by your logic, so could the universe. I simply go for the most parsimonious option... not that I ike to close my mind to other options of course.

No, immaterial can arise by chance because immaterial is not ordered. I suppose disordered material can arise by chance, maybe. But ordered material cannot arise by chance, because ordering requires intelligence. Chance is not ordered. Therefore, ordered material cannot arise by chance. What we see in our universe is ordered material, even Richard Dawkins admits that.

Post by **Mr P** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:40 pm

spinoza99 wrote:...Material can't order itself, because material has no knowledge, and no ability to coordinate with other material...

I know a few chemists that might dispute that

Post by **Xamonas Chegwé** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:40 pm

spinoza99 wrote:
Mr P wrote: If the first turtle can arise by chance then, by your logic, so could the universe. I simply go for the most parsimonious option... not that I ike to close my mind to other options of course.
No, immaterial can arise by chance because immaterial is not ordered. I suppose disordered material can arise by chance, maybe. But ordered material cannot arise by chance, because ordering requires intelligence. Chance is not ordered. Therefore, ordered material cannot arise by chance. What we see in our universe is ordered material, even Richard Dawkins admits that.

Waffle.

Post by **spinoza99** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:43 pm

Mr P wrote:
spinoza99 wrote:...Material can't order itself, because material has no knowledge, and no ability to coordinate with other material...
I know a few chemists that might dispute that

Yea, lipids can form cell walls spontaneously. But then you're stuck with the question, well, where did the natural laws that caused that spontaneous construction of cell walls come from? By chance or not by chance?

Post by **Svartalf** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:46 pm

minerals naturally form into crystals.

Post by **Feck** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:47 pm

The question doesn't deserve an answer .No matter how you frame it it's still 'That' question .

Post by **Mr P** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:47 pm

spinoza99 wrote:
Mr P wrote:
spinoza99 wrote:...Material can't order itself, because material has no knowledge, and no ability to coordinate with other material...
I know a few chemists that might dispute that

Yea, lipids can form cell walls spontaneously. But then you're stuck with the question, well, where did the natural laws that caused that spontaneous construction of cell walls? By chance or not by chance?

Just open your mind and embrace the possibility of other options. The universe isn't black and white and you shouldn't limit yourself to such narrow constraints.

This basically a first cause argument isn't it?

Post by **Feck** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:48 pm

Like a 5yr old saying 'Why' after every thing you say .

Post by **spinoza99** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:54 pm

Svartalf wrote:minerals naturally form into crystals.

Where did the natural laws come from that formed those crystals? By chance or not by chance?

Post by **spinoza99** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:57 pm

Mr P wrote: Just open your mind and embrace the possibility of other options. The universe isn't black and white and you shouldn't limit yourself to such narrow constraints.

This basically a first cause argument isn't it?

Mr P, saying "open your mind" is not a logical argument.

No, this is not a first cause argument. All atheists believe we are here by chance. What is there evidence for believing that?

Post by **Xamonas Chegwé** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:59 pm

spinoza99 wrote:
Mr P wrote: Just open your mind and embrace the possibility of other options. The universe isn't black and white and you shouldn't limit yourself to such narrow constraints.

This basically a first cause argument isn't it?

Mr P, saying "open your mind" is not a logical argument.

No, this is not a first cause argument. All atheists believe we are here by chance. What is there evidence for believing that?

Where is your evidence for all atheists believing that? I am an atheist and I wouldn't make such a claim.

Post by **Mr P** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:59 pm

spinoza99 wrote:
Svartalf wrote:minerals naturally form into crystals.
Where did the natural laws come from that formed those crystals? By chance or not by chance?

What part of "no-one knows" didn't you understand?

Mr P, saying "open your mind" is not a logical argument.

No, this is not a first cause argument. All atheists believe we are here by chance. What is there evidence for believing that?

ALL atheists?

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