David Cameron's Assault on the Homeless

[sandinista]

Here's one interesting table that indicates the total may be nearer 250 million.

yah that table is really 'interesting" where's it from? Never mind...from here, http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/

Still curious about the "100 million brutal deaths". Bunch of BS.

[Seth]

Here's one interesting table that indicates the total may be nearer 250 million.

yah that table is really 'interesting" where's it from? Never mind...from here, http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/

Let's see, the author's credentials include tenure at a major US university and a PhD, among a long list of other CV qualifications to speak authoritatively on the subject, including posting of his research methodology and a long list of publications, so whom shall we take as credible in this regard.

I think NOT the vacuous, anonymous Marxist Internet pundit who has no qualifications in evidence upon which a credible opinion could be based.

Still curious about the "100 million brutal deaths". Bunch of BS.

So, deliberate starvation by Chairman Mao is not "brutal" enough for you? How about the Road of Bones, where dissidents, counterrevolutionaries and other undesirables were sent to Siberia to build a road through the taiga using hand tools, and when they dropped dead from starvation or disease, their bodies were simply incorporated into the road base? Is that "brutal" enough for you?

Your propagandistic denials are refuted by the facts of history, I'm afraid, and you've placed yourself in the camp with Holocaust deniers, which leaves you with zero credibility.

[sandinista]

Here's one interesting table that indicates the total may be nearer 250 million.

yah that table is really 'interesting" where's it from? Never mind...from here, http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/

Let's see, the author's credentials include tenure at a major US university and a PhD, among a long list of other CV qualifications to speak authoritatively on the subject, including posting of his research methodology and a long list of publications, so whom shall we take as credible in this regard.

I think NOT the vacuous, anonymous Marxist Internet pundit who has no qualifications in evidence upon which a credible opinion could be based.

Still curious about the "100 million brutal deaths". Bunch of BS.

So, deliberate starvation by Chairman Mao is not "brutal" enough for you? How about the Road of Bones, where dissidents, counterrevolutionaries and other undesirables were sent to Siberia to build a road through the taiga using hand tools, and when they dropped dead from starvation or disease, their bodies were simply incorporated into the road base? Is that "brutal" enough for you?

Your propagandistic denials are refuted by the facts of history, I'm afraid, and you've placed yourself in the camp with Holocaust deniers, which leaves you with zero credibility.

so...where did you get the number 100 million from?

[Seth]

Here's one interesting table that indicates the total may be nearer 250 million.

yah that table is really 'interesting" where's it from? Never mind...from here, http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/

Let's see, the author's credentials include tenure at a major US university and a PhD, among a long list of other CV qualifications to speak authoritatively on the subject, including posting of his research methodology and a long list of publications, so whom shall we take as credible in this regard.

I think NOT the vacuous, anonymous Marxist Internet pundit who has no qualifications in evidence upon which a credible opinion could be based.

Still curious about the "100 million brutal deaths". Bunch of BS.

So, deliberate starvation by Chairman Mao is not "brutal" enough for you? How about the Road of Bones, where dissidents, counterrevolutionaries and other undesirables were sent to Siberia to build a road through the taiga using hand tools, and when they dropped dead from starvation or disease, their bodies were simply incorporated into the road base? Is that "brutal" enough for you?

Your propagandistic denials are refuted by the facts of history, I'm afraid, and you've placed yourself in the camp with Holocaust deniers, which leaves you with zero credibility.

so...where did you get the number 100 million from?

Can you read?

[sandinista]

better than you apparantly.

[Seth]

better than you apparantly.

Evidently not. It appears that you missed the three zeros at the top of the numbers column which indicates that you have to add that many zeros to the figures below, which leaves us with an average of 110 million and a high figure of 259 million.

[sandinista]

better than you apparantly.

Evidently not. It appears that you missed the three zeros at the top of the numbers column which indicates that you have to add that many zeros to the figures below, which leaves us with an average of 110 million and a high figure of 259 million.

Give me a source...and not some wacko Rudolph Rummel web page.

Rummel is a strong supporter of spreading liberal democracy, although he claims that he doesn't support invasion of another country solely to replace a dictatorship.[13] Rudolph Rummel talks about the "miracle" of liberty and peace, and is an outspoken critic of communism.

[sandinista]

An appendix provides an incomplete list of 20th century death tolls which Perrault attributes to the capitalist system. The list, which includes both combatant and noncombatant dead, includes an estimated 58 million dead from the First and Second World Wars, plus death tolls from various colonial wars, anticommunist wars and repressions, ethnic conflicts, and some victims of famines or malnutrition,which brings the incomplete list to a combined total of about 100 million deaths attributed to capitalism in the 20th century

Guess theres an "incomplete" list of deaths caused by capitalism as well. Another 100 million. Running neck and neck

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Livre_N ... apitalisme

[Seth]

better than you apparantly.

Evidently not. It appears that you missed the three zeros at the top of the numbers column which indicates that you have to add that many zeros to the figures below, which leaves us with an average of 110 million and a high figure of 259 million.

Give me a source...and not some wacko Rudolph Rummel web page.

Rummel is a strong supporter of spreading liberal democracy, although he claims that he doesn't support invasion of another country solely to replace a dictatorship.[13] Rudolph Rummel talks about the "miracle" of liberty and peace, and is an outspoken critic of communism.

Sorry, his credentials are solid and he's a recognized scholar, and you aren't. Therefore, your request is denied. Your Alinsky smears only make you look stupid and ineffectual, so you should cut it out.

[JimC]

where's the number 100 million from?

Estimates of the murders perpetrated by Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot.

yah, who's estimates? Yours?

No, the estimates of numerous scholars on the subject. Are you now denying the purges in the USSR, China and Cambodia? Is that your latest bit of Marxist propaganda, that the Gulags and the Road of Bones didn't exist? That the killing fields of Cambodia are fictions? That Mao's starving his own people to death is not a historical fact?

Really? That's the equivalent of Holocaust denial. Are you sure you want to go there?

Sandinista, even if the 100 million figure is an inflation, there were definitely many millions killed as a direct result of totalitarian governmets of the extreme left. Seth has a point - if you denied that happened, then you might as well join the looney-tune holocaust deniers...

And I know the standard excuse of present-day academic marxists, that those governments were nothing but a perversion of the true faith, and one day, marxism will emerge in its true form...

It is hard, however, to make a rational argument against the following proposition; if a government follows marxist ideology as it is written, using the principle of the means justifying the ends, then both widespread violent repression and totalitarian rule are virtually guaranteed to follow. The historical evidence supports this view...

However, it is possible to adapt some aspects of leftist thinking, with a democratic focus, and achieve a reasonable society, one that respects individual rights but has an active government with a social conscience...

On that note, I know I have lost you both...

[floppit]

Extremists, right, left and religious, have caused appalling numbers of deaths.

Re the OP, to make illegal giving someone homeless soup, regardless of freezing temperatures is pretty extreme.

[sandinista]

where's the number 100 million from?

Estimates of the murders perpetrated by Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot.

yah, who's estimates? Yours?

No, the estimates of numerous scholars on the subject. Are you now denying the purges in the USSR, China and Cambodia? Is that your latest bit of Marxist propaganda, that the Gulags and the Road of Bones didn't exist? That the killing fields of Cambodia are fictions? That Mao's starving his own people to death is not a historical fact?

Really? That's the equivalent of Holocaust denial. Are you sure you want to go there?

Sandinista, even if the 100 million figure is an inflation, there were definitely many millions killed as a direct result of totalitarian governmets of the extreme left. Seth has a point - if you denied that happened, then you might as well join the looney-tune holocaust deniers...

It's the number I question. Period. It's propaganda. If you want to put labels on governments (In some kind of vague left/right terminology), there have been many millions of deaths as a result of the "left" "right" and "center".

And I know the standard excuse of present-day academic marxists, that those governments were nothing but a perversion of the true faith, and one day, marxism will emerge in its true form...

Really? I doubt you'll find any government or system ever...ever having a "true form", at least for as long as the concept of countries exist. You're "standard excuse" doesn't come from Marxists, but from anti-revolutionaries/pro-capitalists. Of course it is true, in the same way that there doesn't really exist a liberal-capitalist utopia in its true form.

It is hard, however, to make a rational argument against the following proposition; if a government follows marxist ideology as it is written, using the principle of the means justifying the ends, then both widespread violent repression and totalitarian rule are virtually guaranteed to follow. The historical evidence supports this view...

Actually it doesn't. History is not that cut and dry. What is "Marxist ideology as it is written"? It's not like any revolutionary movement exists in a vacuum.

However, it is possible to adapt some aspects of leftist thinking, with a democratic focus, and achieve a reasonable society, one that respects individual rights but has an active government with a social conscience...

On that note, I know I have lost you both...

What would you be referring to as an example? Northern Europe? Anywhere in particular?

Extremists, right, left and religious, have caused appalling numbers of deaths.

Re the OP, to make illegal giving someone homeless soup, regardless of freezing temperatures is pretty extreme.

Again "extremists" as a term really has little meaning except to the person using it. Like I said, "If you want to put labels on governments (In some kind of vague left/right terminology), there have been many millions of deaths as a result of the "left" "right" and "center".

[floppit]

If you're struggling with the meaning of extreme this might help:
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/

Of course you would have to counter the statement:

to make illegal giving someone homeless soup, regardless of freezing temperatures is pretty extreme.

It is certainly unprecedented to my knowledge in the UK and in terms of potential impact upon human life on that basis I would say it counts as:

very large in amount or degree

[sandinista]

If you're struggling with the meaning of extreme this might help:
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/

Of course you would have to counter the statement:

to make illegal giving someone homeless soup, regardless of freezing temperatures is pretty extreme.

It is certainly unprecedented to my knowledge in the UK and in terms of potential impact upon human life on that basis I would say it counts as:

very large in amount or degree

extreme: very large in amount or degree

It's not the term "extreme" itself, just as it relates to politics. Virtually meaningless. Has about as much meaning and substance as...well...extreme:

[Seth]

Extremists, right, left and religious, have caused appalling numbers of deaths.

Re the OP, to make illegal giving someone homeless soup, regardless of freezing temperatures is pretty extreme.

Well, yes and no. It might seem that way at first blush, but if the intent is to ensure that the soup homeless people get is healthful and not contaminated, and the restrictions in private giving of food are offset by charitable programs with certified commercial kitchens that can provide untained food, the situation changes dramatically, don't you think?

Perhaps the restriction is particularly ham-handed in it's application, and perhaps it should have been advertised as a protective measure, and people should have been vigorously encouraged to donate to local shelters and food banks and charitable organizations that do provide healthy food to the homeless.

Anybody know how the measure was actually put forward, absent the clear negative bias of the OP?