Evolution questions from my creationist friend

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Re: Evolution questions from my creationist friend

Post by Seth » Sun Mar 13, 2011 1:15 am

Azathoth wrote:There is no evidence for it happening before recent human interventions. Therefore any musing about it is consigned to the pulling things out of your arse school of philosophy along with von daniken and the scientologists until such evidence is brought to light
Wrong. There is no evidence that we are aware of. This is substantially different from the statement "there is no evidence."

And since when is drawing rational logical inferences about what may have happened in the past based on what we know today ex recto?

"Hm, said Newton, "That apple hurt when it fell from the tree and hit me on the head. I posit that gravity must have just started happening today because Azathoth says it would be ex recto to logically infer that despite my "discovery" of gravity today, gravity might have existed sometime in the past as well." :fp:

If what you ass-ert is true, then all of Big Bang cosmology is ex recto merely because it happened before humans were there to observe it.

:roll:
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Re: Evolution questions from my creationist friend

Post by Seth » Sun Mar 13, 2011 1:16 am

Thinking Aloud wrote:If anyone was going to seriously postulate a scientific ID, then I'd recommend they call it "Intelligent Intervention", or "Intervention By Intelligent Beings" - "II" or "IBIB". The phrase "Intelligent Design" is way too loaded.
Why should we abandon a perfectly useful term to the creationists? That gives them a victory they don't deserve.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: Evolution questions from my creationist friend

Post by Seth » Sun Mar 13, 2011 1:25 am

Gallstones wrote:
Seth wrote:
Gallstones wrote:Evolution, as a force, is not negated or diminished or made "not"-evolution just because humans meddle with DNA.
Whatever manipulation we do will either have beneficial or neutral consequences, given conditions, and the affected organisms will have a good run before going extinct. Or it will have detrimental consequences and the organisms will never get a chance.

Evolution is greater than humans and humans are not necessary nor are our manipulations greater or fitter than anything evolution can produce. Human manipulation of DNA is as much a "tool" of evolution as oxygen, water, sunlight, and sex.
True, but not particularly relevant. I do not challenge the theory of evolution except insofar as it suggests, or occasionally insists, that it is THE, and THE ONLY process by which organisms change or come into being.
What is relevant about the point I am making is that it doesn't matter what humans do. Evolution will occur with or without us until there are no more life forms to act on.

Just because humans have been able to manipulate DNA does not mean that there is a designer because we--very late in the game--can manipulate DNA.
I didn't say it does. I merely said that it is logical, rational and scientific to INFER that there MIGHT have been a designer sometime in the 14 billion years prior to our emergence as an intelligent species. What is proven by our abilities is that it is POSSIBLE to design organisms. Therefore it is possible that organisms were designed in the past. If it was impossible for any level of intelligence to manipulate DNA to create or modify organisms, if for example any attempt to do so caused the organism to die immediately no matter how carefully the work was done, then one might be able to make a logical, rational inference that there CANNOT be a designer.

But that's not the case. Therefore, it is simply indisputable that if intelligence at least equal to our own existed at any time in the past, it is highly probable that such an intelligence would have manipulated DNA at some point. Perhaps 10 billion years ago an intelligent race, knowing that their sun was going to go supernova and destroy them utterly, create DNA packets and sowed them throughout space, hoping that after the destruction of their solar system, the DNA packets would eventually be deposited on another newly-formed planet created out of the debris of the supernova that destroyed their race. Perhaps that's how "Panspermia" actually occurred.

Is that a "religious" concept or a "scientific one?
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: Evolution questions from my creationist friend

Post by Azathoth » Sun Mar 13, 2011 2:08 am

If perhaps if if perhaps. In the absence of any evidence to prove it it is just wishful thinking Seth. As to your analogies with gravity and the big bang. There is testable evidence for both along with robust mathematical proofs.
Outside the ordered universe is that amorphous blight of nethermost confusion which blasphemes and bubbles at the center of all infinity—the boundless daemon sultan Azathoth, whose name no lips dare speak aloud, and who gnaws hungrily in inconceivable, unlighted chambers beyond time and space amidst the muffled, maddening beating of vile drums and the thin monotonous whine of accursed flutes.

Code: Select all

// Replaces with spaces the braces in cases where braces in places cause stasis 
   $str = str_replace(array("\{","\}")," ",$str);

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Re: Evolution questions from my creationist friend

Post by Gallstones » Sun Mar 13, 2011 9:03 am

I'll be back.
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Re: Evolution questions from my creationist friend

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Sun Mar 13, 2011 12:03 pm

ID is the opposite of evolution, so "Devolution" would be appropriate, yes? "The more I studied it, the more devolved I became."
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Re: Evolution questions from my creationist friend

Post by Seth » Sun Mar 13, 2011 6:06 pm

Azathoth wrote:If perhaps if if perhaps. In the absence of any evidence to prove it it is just wishful thinking Seth. As to your analogies with gravity and the big bang. There is testable evidence for both along with robust mathematical proofs.
NOW, there is testable evidence. There was nothing but "wishful thinking" when the question first came up. Just because we don't know how to detect, quantify or explain the possible intelligence involved today does not mean it does not, or did not exist nor that we may one day be able to do so.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: Evolution questions from my creationist friend

Post by Seth » Sun Mar 13, 2011 6:13 pm

Gawdzilla wrote:ID is the opposite of evolution, so "Devolution" would be appropriate, yes? "The more I studied it, the more devolved I became."
Nonsense. Intelligent design is both evidence of evolution and in fact is just another aspect of evolution. Once an organism evolves enough intelligence to be able to manipulate it's own genetic structure, then evolution can move even more quickly, along defined and directed paths that enhance the adaptation of the species to both existing and other environments. For example, our evolution brought us to the place where we have evolved enough to allow us to live in space, at least temporarily.

The thing that seems to disturb your Wa is the notion that you might not have evolved "naturally," but it's a bit of a puzzle why you would have such antipathy to the idea that your own existence and state of intelligence might have been contributed to by some other existing, or prior intelligence. Supposing for a moment that some previous intelligence that evolved in the 10 billion years prior to the formation of Earth did indeed broadcast intergalactic biological materials it created in order to ensure that life would be both widely dispersed and less likely to become extinct, and would be able to evolve according to the particular environmental conditions it might find throughout the universe, why would this be a bad thing? Personally, if this is the case, I'm very grateful to that intelligence for giving me the opportunity to live.

Why do you find the notion so disturbing?
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: Evolution questions from my creationist friend

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Sun Mar 13, 2011 6:18 pm

There you go, rattling on about something you know nothing about. Google "intelligent design", read up, remove your foot from your mouth, and come back.
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Re: Evolution questions from my creationist friend

Post by Seth » Sun Mar 13, 2011 7:01 pm

Gawdzilla wrote:There you go, rattling on about something you know nothing about. Google "intelligent design", read up, remove your foot from your mouth, and come back.
What makes you think that there is only one sort of "intelligent design?"
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: Evolution questions from my creationist friend

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Sun Mar 13, 2011 7:21 pm

Seth wrote:
Gawdzilla wrote:There you go, rattling on about something you know nothing about. Google "intelligent design", read up, remove your foot from your mouth, and come back.
What makes you think that there is only one sort of "intelligent design?"
So now you're talking about make Bulova watches? Fuck off.
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Re: Evolution questions from my creationist friend

Post by Seth » Sun Mar 13, 2011 7:42 pm

Gawdzilla wrote:
Seth wrote:
Gawdzilla wrote:There you go, rattling on about something you know nothing about. Google "intelligent design", read up, remove your foot from your mouth, and come back.
What makes you think that there is only one sort of "intelligent design?"
So now you're talking about make Bulova watches? Fuck off.
No. You fuck off.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: Evolution questions from my creationist friend

Post by Gallstones » Sun Mar 13, 2011 10:10 pm

Fight! Fight! Fight! :pop:
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The Second Amendment forms a fourth branch of government (an armed citizenry) in case the government goes mad. ~Larry Nutter

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Re: Evolution questions from my creationist friend

Post by GenesForLife » Mon Mar 14, 2011 9:58 am

There have been several blantant strawmen of evolution that have been posted here, I think it is time for me to go after some of the ideas that have been presented.

[1] Why did different hominids co-exist?

Because evolutionary change doesn't happen like a ladder does, with one species giving rise to another and immediately going extinct! Divergence by speciation allows a branching pattern to develop, with gene flow not possible between the descendent populations, in effect forming descendent species that can co-exist with the ancestral species.

[2] Why aren't there transitional forms between a gorilla and Homo sapiens?

Because Gorillas are not the ancestors of humans, and aren't on the same branch of the evolutionary tree.

------------------------------------ Gorilla Lineage
CA ----------------------|
------------------------------------- Human Lineage

Why did all hominids not evolve like humans did?

Someone had it right, Mutations... , the buildings that selection can be imagined to build are restricted by the material available for construction. Mutations determine the form and function of the organisms that are part of a population, and any selection that may act will only determine which forms and which functions predominate/gain an edge/become prevalent, just putting different genomes under the same selective pressures will not cause them to evolve convergent features all the time.

Is Darwinism falsifiable?

Depends on how you define it, if you define it as strict adaptation, all cases of neutral evolution falsify that approach. If you define it according to Neodarwinism, we would need complete evolutionary stasis with no change in allele frequencies at all, so yes it can be falsified but it hasn't been falsified because evolution is a fact.


Now, let us come to complex features and the evolution thereof, complex features are a function of genomes, i.e the genes present in organisms and the interactions of the products they produce, and ergo all that evolution needs to do is to account for the production of new genes and genomic features, and amongst mutational processes there are plenty of known candidates that can do this. We start off with point mutations, which involve the substitution of one nucleotide with another, then we have alternative splicing, which enables one gene to produce different protein outputs, we have transposons, which jump around in the genome inserting themselves into various spots, we have gene duplication, where we acquire extra copies of genes, free from selection, which can then be acted upon by point mutations, and we have whole genome duplications, where an extra copy of the whole genome is gained, this means that the number of potentially new genes in the genome = number of preexisting genes in the genome, even if a minority of them form paralogues we have novel genomic features, and consequently novel phenotypes.

All that evolution has to do is produce genomic complexity to produce phenotypic complexity, and the known processes of mutation can do this, case closed.

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Re: Evolution questions from my creationist friend

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:02 am

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