When it comes to losing an empire the US only have to look to Britain, and perhaps the Romans, to see how it's done properly!Crumple wrote:One born every minute. The US isn't broke today without some sort of precedent. Suckers are suckers not heroes. One born every minute of hour of every day. Do you want a camera angle on every mistake it takes to lose a empire?
The Special Relationship Between the UK & US Must End
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Re: The Special Relationship Between the UK & US Must End
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: The Special Relationship Between the UK & US Must End
It is possible to lose a empire completely yet still exist. That's the trick. I think America may be on course for messing up that bit. At least it should be magnificant. Good luck.Brian Peacock wrote:When it comes to losing an empire the US only have to look to Britain, and perhaps the Romans, to see how it's done properly!Crumple wrote:One born every minute. The US isn't broke today without some sort of precedent. Suckers are suckers not heroes. One born every minute of hour of every day. Do you want a camera angle on every mistake it takes to lose a empire?

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Re: The Special Relationship Between the UK & US Must End
Of course, we never had much of an empire. Guam, Puerto Rico, Northern Mariana Islands, and the US Virgin Islands. American Samoa, kind of - it's self governing. And, six or 7 almost uninhabited islands in the Pacific like Wake Island and Midway.Crumple wrote:It is possible to lose a empire completely yet still exist. That's the trick. I think America may be on course for messing up that bit. At least it should be magnificant. Good luck.Brian Peacock wrote:When it comes to losing an empire the US only have to look to Britain, and perhaps the Romans, to see how it's done properly!Crumple wrote:One born every minute. The US isn't broke today without some sort of precedent. Suckers are suckers not heroes. One born every minute of hour of every day. Do you want a camera angle on every mistake it takes to lose a empire?
We're not good at empires, like you blighters were. We just sort of give everything back right away.
United States occupation of Greenland (1941–1945)
United States occupation of Iceland (1941–1946)
American Occupation Zones in Austria and Vienna
American Occupation Zone in West Berlin
American Occupation Zones in Allied Occupation Zones in Germany
Allied Military Government for Occupied Territories in full force in Allied controlled sections of Italy from Invasion of Sicily in July of 1943 until the armistice with Italy in September 1943. AMGOT continued in newly liberated areas of Italy until the end of World War II. Also existed in combat zones of Allied nations such as France.
Free Territory of Trieste (1947-1954) US co-administered a portion of the Free Territory along with the UK.
Japan (1945–1952)
Rhineland (Germany) (1918–1921)
South Korea (1945–1948)
Coalition Provisional Authority Iraq (2003–2004)
Green zone Iraq (March 20, 2003 – December 31, 2008.
Clipperton Island (1944–1945), occupied territory; returned to France on 23 Oct 1945
We had a few possessions for short periods, like Cuba for 3 years, which we got from Spain in the Spanish American War, and then we freed it. We had the Philipines also which was freed from Spain, and which we ended up freeing completely in 1946. Nicaragua we had for a few years - Veracruz for like six months. We returned islands we took from the Japanese in WW2 to Japan.
I mean - we aren't like you folks, who went around the world and just sort took everything you wanted. You plundered Egypt and and Greece and stole priceless works of art. You held India in your clutches for centuries plundering its spices and animal wealth. You took your own private fiefdoms in Africa and robbed them of gems and jewels and animals and just sort of carved the continent up as you saw fit. Nice job folks.

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Re: The Special Relationship Between the UK & US Must End
It may be the condition you give things back in that makes so many folk count the days down on your calendar? There's damaged goods and then there's goods so damaged they must have been in a parcelfarce van. 

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Re: The Special Relationship Between the UK & US Must End
I think a special relationship is very much in the interest of Britain. We are talking about the country that is the world's banker, and is historically one of the most peaceful nations on earth.
And we have historic ties, through our long trade and diplomatic ties through Hong Kong. So special relations with the most important nation on earth will be good for both countries.
America? Who gives a fuck?
And we have historic ties, through our long trade and diplomatic ties through Hong Kong. So special relations with the most important nation on earth will be good for both countries.
America? Who gives a fuck?
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Re: The Special Relationship Between the UK & US Must End
Coito ergo sum wrote: We're not good at empires, like you blighters were. We just sort of give everything back right away.
Maybe someone should tell theCoito ergo sum wrote: I mean - we aren't like you folks, who went around the world and just sort took everything you wanted.
Apache
Blackfeet
Cherokee
Cheyenne
Chickasaw
Chippewa
Choctaw
Colville
Comanche
Cree
Creek
Crow
Delaware
Houma
Iroquois
Kiowa
Navajo
Osage
Ottawa
Paiute
Pima
Potawatomi
Pueblo
Seminole
Shoshone
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Ute
Yaqui
You really should add the people of Kuwait and Saudi Arabia and Palestine to that list. And congratulate the people of Vietnam and Cuba for kicking your asses out.
The US likes an empire allright. They just don't like the word. So they simply change the name to "liberation".
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Re: The Special Relationship Between the UK & US Must End
Saying the US is an "empire" because our country was conquered from the native Americans is like listing the Celts and the Picts and other native tribes of Britain among the Brits conquests. We can if you like.... if you're going to list native American tribes, then we can go back into UK past and list every tribe blighty slaughtered. We can then go to Africa and list all the African tribes. Want to?
And some of the American Indian tribes were attacked and conquered by the British anyway - and pushed off the Eastern seaboard by the British.... How many Indian tribes did the Brits go after before 1783? How many native peoples in the Caribbean? You realize that it was you Limeys that were colonizing North America in the first place, right? And, you realize you folks carried on straight to the Pacific, just like the States did, don't you? And, what did blighty do to the Indian tribes in Canada? Play Pinochle?
Gotta love a smug Euro, trying to point judgmental fingers at others....I love the smell of hypocrisy in the morning....
LOL - sounds like guilt right there. And, well deserved. There isn't a country on the planet that has more to answer for than Britain, arguably. The Portuguese and the Spanish may have been more brutal, the way they wiped out the native populations of Mexico and south America almost completely. But, all you European snobs have a lot to answer for.
You folks did this:

You turned Africa into a nice little puzzle that could easily be cut out of cardboard so kids could piece it together. Divvied it all up nice, didn't ya, blighty!? Got the biggest share for the Brits, right? And, what you didn't get first, you just took from Germany and whatnot.
Oh, by the way - see that little blue portion of Africa on the left - the tiny dark blue blip there - that's "Liberia." That's America's contribution to African colonialism. We set up a free and independent State, self governing and autonomous. We didn't suck it dry like you folks.
Your move.
And some of the American Indian tribes were attacked and conquered by the British anyway - and pushed off the Eastern seaboard by the British.... How many Indian tribes did the Brits go after before 1783? How many native peoples in the Caribbean? You realize that it was you Limeys that were colonizing North America in the first place, right? And, you realize you folks carried on straight to the Pacific, just like the States did, don't you? And, what did blighty do to the Indian tribes in Canada? Play Pinochle?


Sure we invaded Kuwait, but we left immediately after freeing it from Iraq. And we never occupied Saudi Arabia or Palestine. Blighty, of course, occupied parts of Syria, Turkey, Palestine (including Israel/Jordan, etc.), Iraq, and Egypt. You folks held onto that shit, too. No lettin' go...not till you had to.mistermack wrote:
You really should add the people of Kuwait and Saudi Arabia and Palestine to that list.
Well, we didn't get "kicked out" of Cuba. We freed it from Spain, and then we left and left Cuba to govern itself in 1902. Learn something, why don't you? And, Vietnam, of course, was a huge mistake of the US - naturally, though, we came after the 100 year (or almost) occupation of Vietnam by your other colonial neighbor - Froggy - who held onto it by tooth and nail from the late 1800s to what? 1954 - what was it Hue? Or Dien Bien Phu? Can't remember the name - but, Froggy got their asses handed to them by the Vietnamese, and the US made the big mistake of picking up French slack. So, we fought it out with the North Vietnamese backed by the Soviets until the early 70s and we ended up leaving.mistermack wrote:
And congratulate the people of Vietnam and Cuba for kicking your asses out.
[/quote][/quote]mistermack wrote:
The US likes an empire allright. They just don't like the word. So they simply change the name to "liberation".
LOL - sounds like guilt right there. And, well deserved. There isn't a country on the planet that has more to answer for than Britain, arguably. The Portuguese and the Spanish may have been more brutal, the way they wiped out the native populations of Mexico and south America almost completely. But, all you European snobs have a lot to answer for.
You folks did this:

You turned Africa into a nice little puzzle that could easily be cut out of cardboard so kids could piece it together. Divvied it all up nice, didn't ya, blighty!? Got the biggest share for the Brits, right? And, what you didn't get first, you just took from Germany and whatnot.
Oh, by the way - see that little blue portion of Africa on the left - the tiny dark blue blip there - that's "Liberia." That's America's contribution to African colonialism. We set up a free and independent State, self governing and autonomous. We didn't suck it dry like you folks.
Your move.

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Re: The Special Relationship Between the UK & US Must End
Who the fuck gives a toss about Britain? Did I make any claims about the British Empire? My parents were both Irish. I've got no love of empire, British or American.
I don't know why the fuck you're rambling on about it.
I was just pointing out what crap that you were spouting about the US.
You "liberated Kuwait"? You gave it back to the bandits that head your puppet government. Liberated mean freed, doesn't it? You certainly didn't liberate it.
You re-claimed your "property".
Kuwait and Saudi are both part of the US empire, with a bunch of so-called royals doing your dirty work. And we all know that israel is the unnamed last US state. Independent in name only. Stolen from the Palestinians.
And you have Iraq and Afghanistan. Both controlled by the US.
And Iran was just the same, virtually US property, with the Shah just there to have a local name on the deeds.
That's why you hate Iran and Cuba and Vietnam. Someone had the nerve to take your "property".
And you certainly got kicked out of Cuba. Twice. Once by Castro's revolution, and once at the Bay of Pigs. Learn something why don't you?
If Cuba wasn't US property, why has the US been sulking for fifty years?
I don't know why the fuck you're rambling on about it.
I was just pointing out what crap that you were spouting about the US.
You "liberated Kuwait"? You gave it back to the bandits that head your puppet government. Liberated mean freed, doesn't it? You certainly didn't liberate it.
You re-claimed your "property".
Kuwait and Saudi are both part of the US empire, with a bunch of so-called royals doing your dirty work. And we all know that israel is the unnamed last US state. Independent in name only. Stolen from the Palestinians.
And you have Iraq and Afghanistan. Both controlled by the US.
And Iran was just the same, virtually US property, with the Shah just there to have a local name on the deeds.
That's why you hate Iran and Cuba and Vietnam. Someone had the nerve to take your "property".
And you certainly got kicked out of Cuba. Twice. Once by Castro's revolution, and once at the Bay of Pigs. Learn something why don't you?
If Cuba wasn't US property, why has the US been sulking for fifty years?
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Re: The Special Relationship Between the UK & US Must End
Actually Kuwait was not very friendly to the U.S. prior to that incident - only afterwards, for obvious reasons. That's the only reason why Iraq tried to take it - they figured the U.S., who had better relations with Iraq than with Kuwait - wouldn't interfere.mistermack wrote:You "liberated Kuwait"? You gave it back to the bandits that head your puppet government. Liberated mean freed, doesn't it? You certainly didn't liberate it.
You re-claimed your "property".
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Re: The Special Relationship Between the UK & US Must End
Oh, might be the little fact that this entire thread is about the United Kingdom and the United States. Who the fuck gives a toss about the Irish? That belongs on another thread.mistermack wrote:Who the fuck gives a toss about Britain? Did I make any claims about the British Empire? My parents were both Irish. I've got no love of empire, British or American.
I don't know why the fuck you're rambling on about it.
What crap, exactly? The only "crap" about the US was spouted by you.mistermack wrote: I was just pointing out what crap that you were spouting about the US.
You "liberated Kuwait"?
From Iraq - absolutely. That was under UN auspices.
The UN, you mean? Under UN Resolution 678? The US, naturally, did most of the contributing to the Gulf War, but after the US it was the United Kingdom, Saudi Arabia and Egypt.mistermack wrote:
You gave it back to the bandits that head your puppet government.
Kuwait's property. The US doesn't run Kuwait. It was liberated FROM Iraq. It's not a western democracy, but then again, are you suggesting the US and/or the UN should have dismantled the Kuwaiti government and installed a government preferential to western countries? Is that the bullshit your spouting now?mistermack wrote: Liberated mean freed, doesn't it? You certainly didn't liberate it.
You re-claimed your "property".
Bwaahahahahahahahahahhahahahahah!!!!!!mistermack wrote:
Kuwait and Saudi are both part of the US empire,
You mean - the same OPEC countries that have held us over a barrel of oil and screwed with our economy in the past - jacked up the price of oil against our will? They're part of our "empire" but we can't control how much oil they pump out of the ground, right?
Well, believe what you like - it makes you feel better. Israel is not an "unnamed US State" - it was created by the UN and in particular it was BRITISH fucking decision. British Mandate For Palestine - remember that shit? The Limeys owned the place, and the Limeys divvied it up. The US had little to nothing to do with the formation of Israel. Once it's formed, though, and is a STATE recognized by the United Nations, then it has a right to exist. Sure, the US sided with Israel when it was invaded 5 times by neighboring Arab countries openly calling for Jewish genocide. I bet your preference would be to have allowed the genocide to happen?mistermack wrote: with a bunch of so-called royals doing your dirty work. And we all know that israel is the unnamed last US state. Independent in name only. Stolen from the Palestinians.
Funny - we can't seem to get Karzai to do what we want him to do and he's given us the metaphorical finger enough times.mistermack wrote: And you have Iraq and Afghanistan. Both controlled by the US.
And, the Iraq occupation is just ending. We upheld our responsibilities under the Geneva Conventions to put back together what was broken by the war, and we're pulling out.
You mean BRITISH property, don't you? You know who "appointed" Reza to the Presidency of Iran? British General Edmund Ironside. The 1921 coup was a British coup. A British Embassy report from 1932 concedes that the British put Reza Shah "on the throne." The British had monopoly rights of the British-owned Imperial Bank of Persia to issue banknotes in Iran. The British had a majority ownership of the monopoly Anglo-Iranian Oil Company, and held sway on Iranian affairs. By virtue of BRITISH control of Iran, Mohammed Reza Pahlavi became king of Iran. And, there were even state visits by the Queen of England TO Iran. And, it was the British who brought down the fall the Mossadegh in Iran under Operation Ajax.mistermack wrote: And Iran was just the same, virtually US property,
British influence waned in the 1960s and American influence around the world increased. But, the US NEVER had the type of iron fisted control of Iran that blighty did. It's, of course, fashionable to pretend the US has for all time been the emperor of the world.
Blighty put him there!mistermack wrote:
with the Shah just there to have a local name on the deeds.
We oppose Iran because they stormed the American embassy and kidnapped hundreds of our embassy personnel, and that's an attack on US soil (as any attack on any embassy is an attack on the soil of the country whose embassy it is). The people were held for ransom for over a year. Yeah - we oppose that. I suppose the Irish position on something like that would be "what do we even have an embassy there in the first place - spending money on embassies is taking away our whiskey money."mistermack wrote: That's why you hate Iran and Cuba and Vietnam. Someone had the nerve to take your "property".
We don't hate Vietnam.
We don't hate Cubans - the US takes in more Cubans by far than any other country in the world, and they are given automatic permanent residence of the United States if they can reach our shores. We oppose Castro because he's a fucking dictator who seized billions of dollars worth of assets of American citizens (not American government property, but the property of American citizens). And, he proceeded to ally himself with Soviet Russia. Yeah, we oppose that.
Cuba was given independence in 1902 - 57 years before Castro took power. We were not "kicked out" in 1902.mistermack wrote:
And you certainly got kicked out of Cuba. Twice. Once by Castro's revolution, and once at the Bay of Pigs. Learn something why don't you?
The US was not "kicked out" of Cuba in 1959. American businesses were. But, the US didn't control Cuba in 1959.
The Bay of Pigs was Kennedy's attempted invasion and it failed. That's not being "kicked out." Sue us for losing a battle.
Do try to use language with greater precision than a 4 year old. The Bay of Pigs was not the US getting "kicked out" - since we weren't in Cuba at the time to begin with.
Typical juvenile and childish view of foreign policy. To you it's all about who "likes" whom and who is "sulking" and who "hates" whom. Your view of foreign policy is like middle school cliques.mistermack wrote:
If Cuba wasn't US property, why has the US been sulking for fifty years?
Cuba wasn't US property, period. Some Americans had property there, but we still make the distinction between private property and State property. You folks may not do that - and you apparently don't - but, we do. The US didn't own Cuba. Our government does have an interest in protecting Americans abroad, like every other country does. When entire industries were seized - yeah - it's important. And, we also don't like dictators living 90 miles away that ally with the Soviet Union. If you can't see national interests there besides "sulking" and who "hates" whom and who "likes" whom, then I guess it's no wonder Ireland never amounted to anything but a laughing stock of Europe. Go have another drink, and look for your pot of gold under the rainbow.
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Re: The Special Relationship Between the UK & US Must End
Blah blah blah America this, blah blah blah America that. Seems the 'special relationship' had turned out to be all about how 'special' America is... as usual.


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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: The Special Relationship Between the UK & US Must End
Because...naturally, if an American doesn't lay down for every scurrilous comment about the U.S. that equals a positive assertion that the US is "special."Brian Peacock wrote:Blah blah blah America this, blah blah blah America that. Seems the 'special relationship' had turned out to be all about how 'special' America is... as usual.

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Re: The Special Relationship Between the UK & US Must End
Having reached 14 minutes 59 seconds there isn't much 'special' time left I'm afraid.....according to the debt clock or something.Coito ergo sum wrote:Because...naturally, if an American doesn't lay down for every scurrilous comment about the U.S. that equals a positive assertion that the US is "special."Brian Peacock wrote:Blah blah blah America this, blah blah blah America that. Seems the 'special relationship' had turned out to be all about how 'special' America is... as usual.

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Re: The Special Relationship Between the UK & US Must End
Do I have to explain the bleedin obvious to you?Coito ergo sum wrote: Oh, might be the little fact that this entire thread is about the United Kingdom and the United States. Who the fuck gives a toss about the Irish? That belongs on another thread.
You were banging on about the british empire, posting maps, as if I was applying double standards, criticising the US empire while seeing nothing wrong with the British one. Otherwise, why were you banging on about the British Empire? That's why I pointed out my Irish ancestry, and said quite plainly that I in no way justified the British Empire.
Why was that so hard to understand? It seems crystal clear to me. I can't imagine why you have such trouble with such a simple point.
You really are incredibly naiive. You see nothing but headlines, you seem incapable of seeing what happens behind them.Coito ergo sum wrote: The US doesn't run Kuwait.
The Royal family run Kuwait. The US runs the royal family. If the US pulled out, the royals wouldn't last five minutes. They know it, the people know it, and the US government know it. So what the US wants, it gets.
THAT'S why Kuwait is effectively US property.
You can spout the headline titles all you like, the reality is what happens behind the facade. Kuwait is independent in theory. It isn't in fact. But I don't expect you to be able to see behind the facade any more. You've proved often enough that you can't. (or maybe like the christians, you only see what you want to see).
How the fuck do you make that out? Whenever the oil supply is threatened, it's Kuwait and Saudi that move the price down. If they wanted to raise it, they could double it overnight.Coito ergo sum wrote: You mean - the same OPEC countries that have held us over a barrel of oil and screwed with our economy in the past - jacked up the price of oil against our will? They're part of our "empire" but we can't control how much oil they pump out of the ground, right?
Why don't they? They wouldn't dare, because the US calls the shots. The PEOPLE of Saudi and Kuwait might want to raise the price of oil, but the Royals don't. Their private wealth is invested in the west, so they don't want a depression, and they don't want to lose their US bodyguard.
You're WHAT? Perhaps you could say what you mean by pulling out? To most people that means all the US troops are leaving. Are you claiming that?Coito ergo sum wrote: And, the Iraq occupation is just ending. We upheld our responsibilities under the Geneva Conventions to put back together what was broken by the war, and we're pulling out.
See, you drink up the headlines you're fed like an obedient puppy dog.
You just can't see reality unless it lands on your foot.
The US won't leave Iraq till W and his friends get all their money. And that will take years. And their puppets don't want them to go. They know they'd get slaughtered. So they will beg the US to stay, and Uncle Sam will "reluctantly" stay on, but will take even more money for their trouble.
I didn't say you hated Cubans. Do try to get it right.Coito ergo sum wrote: We don't hate Cubans - the US takes in more Cubans by far than any other country in the world, and they are given automatic permanent residence of the United States if they can reach our shores. We oppose Castro because he's a fucking dictator who seized billions of dollars worth of assets of American citizens (not American government property, but the property of American citizens). And, he proceeded to ally himself with Soviet Russia. Yeah, we oppose that.
The US has tried to break Cuba and Vietnam with sanctions.
For what? For not wanting the US running their country in all but name.
That's sulking in my book. No other country had such a sanctions regime.
Cuba had every right to nationalise whatever it liked. If you invest in a foreign country, that's a chance you take.
It was mostly mafia money, which is why it caused so much trouble. The mafia have the contacts in government, and don't like losing their ill-gotten gains.
I'd rather it reverted to the Cubans myself.
You really are out of touch with reality. The US invaded Cuba at the bay of pigs, and got kicked out. I suppose you see it as some kind of victory? You really are amazing.Coito ergo sum wrote: Do try to use language with greater precision than a 4 year old. The Bay of Pigs was not the US getting "kicked out" - since we weren't in Cuba at the time to begin with.
Fuck this, what am I doing, replying to your delusions? I think it must be catching, bye.
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Re: The Special Relationship Between the UK & US Must End
I think this thread might have to get moved to the "No it isn't! Yes it is!" section. It was weird to begin with, and went clear off the rails a while ago.
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