America must be removed from the "Islamic World."

[Gawd]

Oh, geez, Seth. Gaza is not a port of Israel and Gazan waters do not belong to Israel no matter how much you want to expel the Palestinians.

[Seth]

Oh, geez, Seth. Gaza is not a port of Israel and Gazan waters do not belong to Israel no matter how much you want to expel the Palestinians.

Sure it does.

[Warren Dew]

Umm, Israel (formerly with the help of Egypt - not sure where that's at at the moment) blockades Gaza.

The "new" regime in Egypt has stated their agreement with prior agreements with Israel.

What I really hate is people who confuse their own subjective moral opinion with the law.

Morals probably have more to do with the topic of this thread than the law. Of course, Israel's forcible boarding and takeover of a peaceful civilian ship carrying no contraband is even more immoral than it is illegal.

the anti-democratic nature of most of the Palestinian factions,

This relies on "democracy" being some objectively better form of government.

Irrelevant anyway since Hamas was elected to be the government of Gaza, the West Bank, and East Jerusalem in an election that was encouraged by the U.S. and Israel and was seen as credible and genuinely democratic by international observers. Of course, for their troubles in following the rules of democracy, Hamas saw Israel and the U.S. support an attempt to illegally retain power by Fatah, an attempt that was successful except in Gaza. If anyone was "anti-democratic", it was not Hamas but Israel and the U.S.

[pErvinalia]

Umm, Israel (formerly with the help of Egypt - not sure where that's at at the moment) blockades Gaza.

The "new" regime in Egypt has stated their agreement with prior agreements with Israel.

What I really hate is people who confuse their own subjective moral opinion with the law.

Morals probably have more to do with the topic of this thread than the law. Of course, Israel's forcible boarding and takeover of a peaceful civilian ship carrying no contraband is even more immoral than it is illegal.

the anti-democratic nature of most of the Palestinian factions,

This relies on "democracy" being some objectively better form of government.

Irrelevant anyway since Hamas was elected to be the government of Gaza, the West Bank, and East Jerusalem in an election that was encouraged by the U.S. and Israel and was seen as credible and genuinely democratic by international observers. Of course, for their troubles in following the rules of democracy, Hamas saw Israel and the U.S. support an attempt to illegally retain power by Fatah, an attempt that was successful except in Gaza. If anyone was "anti-democratic", it was not Hamas but Israel and the U.S.

I officially like Warren now.

[pErvinalia]

The "Gaza aid flotilla" incident wasn't piracy. To call it that is to pretend that words don't have meanings.

Umm, they stormed a civilian boat in international waters.

No, they attempted to peacefully board a vessel according to international law

You're shitting us? Oh wait, you think you're not. Ok, I don't want to go down this road. As you know, I don't entertain most of the fantasies that emanate from your brain. This one won't be an exception.

[Warren Dew]

I officially like Warren now.

Don't get too comfortable with it. I call them as I see them, so people who like me based on things we agree on tend to feel blindsided when I end up disagreeing with them on the things they're mistaken about.

[JimC]

Warren Dew wrote:

Irrelevant anyway since Hamas was elected to be the government of Gaza, the West Bank, and East Jerusalem in an election that was encouraged by the U.S. and Israel and was seen as credible and genuinely democratic by international observers. Of course, for their troubles in following the rules of democracy, Hamas saw Israel and the U.S. support an attempt to illegally retain power by Fatah, an attempt that was successful except in Gaza. If anyone was "anti-democratic", it was not Hamas but Israel and the U.S.

Well, it may have technically been a fair election, but the fact that one is voting for an armed militia in control of most activities around you might be seen as somewhat pressured. There is also no doubt that the rule of Hamas at present is via the barrel of a gun, quite capricious, and without any genuine rule of law. Maybe it couldn't really happen any other way in their situation...

[Warren Dew]

Well, it may have technically been a fair election, but the fact that one is voting for an armed militia in control of most activities around you might be seen as somewhat pressured. There is also no doubt that the rule of Hamas at present is via the barrel of a gun, quite capricious, and without any genuine rule of law. Maybe it couldn't really happen any other way in their situation...

Hamas wasn't in any way "in control" of anything in the palestinian territories when they were elected. Fatah was firmly in control before those elections. The vote for Hamas was a repudiation of corrupt Fatah rule, and a ringing endorsement for Hamas' rhetoric of violence against Israel. A policy of sticking it to the national enemy always plays well in a democracy - just look at how well Ahmadinejad does with his anti-US rhetoric.

As for the present situation, after how Hamas was treated by the U.S. and Israel for winning fairly by democratic rules, is it any surprise that they decided democracy was a bad idea after all?

[JimC]

Well, it may have technically been a fair election, but the fact that one is voting for an armed militia in control of most activities around you might be seen as somewhat pressured. There is also no doubt that the rule of Hamas at present is via the barrel of a gun, quite capricious, and without any genuine rule of law. Maybe it couldn't really happen any other way in their situation...

Hamas wasn't in any way "in control" of anything in the palestinian territories when they were elected. Fatah was firmly in control before those elections. The vote for Hamas was a repudiation of corrupt Fatah rule, and a ringing endorsement for Hamas' rhetoric of violence against Israel. A policy of sticking it to the national enemy always plays well in a democracy - just look at how well Ahmadinejad and Chavez do with their anti-US rhetoric.

As for the present situation, after how Hamas was treated by the U.S. and Israel for winning fairly by democratic rules, is it any surprise that they decided democracy was a bad idea after all?

Well, I am no fan of Israel's actions with respect to the inhabitants of Gaza, and for that matter its own arab citizens, who are second-class citizens for clearly religious reasons.

However, Hamas (mandate or no mandate) had a clear policy of not recognising Israel as a state, and engaging in military struggle against them by terrorist means. One could scarcely expect Israel or the US to congratulate them on their fine election result...

[Warren Dew]

However, Hamas (mandate or no mandate) had a clear policy of not recognising Israel as a state, and engaging in military struggle against them by terrorist means. One could scarcely expect Israel or the US to congratulate them on their fine election result...

If they weren't going to be recognizing the legitimacy of the election results, wasn't it rather hypocritical to be pushing the elections in the first place? "Oh, we want you to have elections - but only if you elect the folks we want elected." Not exactly a ringing endorsement of democracy.

[Gawd]

Hamas does not commit terrorism. They are freedom fighters that attack the extremist Jews in Israel that would otherwise ethnically cleanse them, just like what Israel is doing in the West Bank to the Arabs there. And besides, Hamas itself has not launched an attack on Israel in a long time. The current freedom attacks are actually carried out by individuals and small groups that Hamas does not control.

[JimC]

However, Hamas (mandate or no mandate) had a clear policy of not recognising Israel as a state, and engaging in military struggle against them by terrorist means. One could scarcely expect Israel or the US to congratulate them on their fine election result...

If they weren't going to be recognizing the legitimacy of the election results, wasn't it rather hypocritical to be pushing the elections in the first place? "Oh, we want you to have elections - but only if you elect the folks we want elected." Not exactly a ringing endorsement of democracy.

Fair point. I am not engaged in an exercise to exonerate the US or Israel of cynical political opportunism when it suits. What I do want to emphasise, though, is that Hamas is not a paragon of virtue or sensible decision making either; I suggest that its militancy and rocket attacks has played into the hands of the Israeli hawks by helping to maintain an image of a brave little Israel surrounded by barbarians...

Hamas does not commit terrorism. They are freedom fighters that attack the extremist Jews in Israel that would otherwise ethnically cleanse them, just like what Israel is doing in the West Bank to the Arabs there. And besides, Hamas itself has not launched an attack on Israel in a long time. The current freedom attacks are actually carried out by individuals and small groups that Hamas does not control.

If there actions were confined to self defence within Gaza, or purely targetted on IDF personel, you may have a point. But their past attacks were clearly targetting civilians. I recognise and applaud the fact that, for whatever reason, they have reduced such attacks for the moment. However, I doubt very much whether there are militant, rocket armed groups in Gaza without the blessing of Hamas - they run a pretty tight ship...

[Gawd]

Israeli civilians are legitimate targets since it is they that are doing the ethnic cleansing. And also, Israeli citizens are the IDF. You can't claim to be a "civilian" all the while being part of the the Jewish murder weapon.

[JimC]

Israeli civilians are legitimate targets since it is they that are doing the ethnic cleansing. And also, Israeli citizens are the IDF. You can't claim to be a "civilian" all the while being part of the the Jewish murder weapon.

And this endlessly deep well of hate exists on both sides, leaving a toxic, festering sore that seems incapable of healing. The murderous nightmare will continue...

[Gawd]

Israeli civilians are legitimate targets since it is they that are doing the ethnic cleansing. And also, Israeli citizens are the IDF. You can't claim to be a "civilian" all the while being part of the the Jewish murder weapon.

And this endlessly deep well of hate exists on both sides, leaving a toxic, festering sore that seems incapable of healing. The murderous nightmare will continue...

It's entirely Israel's fault. Way back in 2002/2003, Saudi Arabia and the other Arab nations all offered Israel peace treaties if it ceased ethnically cleansing the Palestinians and recognize the 1967 borders that every other nation in the world supports. Well, being Israel and a nation full of Jewish supremacists with the backing of the Americans, it was rejected. The entirety of the problem today is Israel's refusal to stop stealing land and ethnically cleansing Arabs from the area. Hamas is right to attack Israel, we see just how useless Fatah is in protecting the West Bank & Palestinians from the onslaught of Jewish "settlers" bent on carrying out pogroms against all Arabs.