America must be removed from the "Islamic World."

[Coito ergo sum]

Right. Raid the place, kill everyone holding a weapon, save the hostages, release the ships, and tell everyone still living to leave the area and never return. Then carpet bomb the place. Post some signs saying that the area is an interdicted zone subject to being bombed without notice. Sow a few hundred thousand land mines. Then watch from the sky, and if someone tries to reestablish a base there, carpet bomb the place again. Repeat as necessary, until they get the message and give up piracy.

I like your thinking Seth. I would like to apply this to America's thieving "friend" in the Middle East that I so frequently talk about...... Don't you agree?

Which friend? Is he committing acts of piracy on the high seas?

Does 'Gaza Aid Flotilla' ring any bells?

How am I supposed to know he's talking about Israel? He makes shit up all the time.

The "Gaza aid flotilla" incident wasn't piracy. To call it that is to pretend that words don't have meanings.

[pErvinalia]

Anytime you want to back up your assertions with some evidence - like maybe some news reports from a non-Pallywood source - I'll stop laughing at your jokes long enough to look at them.

Are you claiming that settlement activity is a media/UN conspiracy? Huh?!?

Settlement activity? Oh, no. There has been settlement activity. Focus.

We were talking about "piracy" and we were also talking about "stealing homes and water wells." "Settlement activity" does not equal "stealing homes and water wells."

You have some credible source to back up "stealing homes and water wells," and "piracy?" Let's see it.

Umm, *cough*, aren't you forgetting something?

You wrote: "They don't steal land, homes or water wells from the Palestinians".

[pErvinalia]

Right. Raid the place, kill everyone holding a weapon, save the hostages, release the ships, and tell everyone still living to leave the area and never return. Then carpet bomb the place. Post some signs saying that the area is an interdicted zone subject to being bombed without notice. Sow a few hundred thousand land mines. Then watch from the sky, and if someone tries to reestablish a base there, carpet bomb the place again. Repeat as necessary, until they get the message and give up piracy.

I like your thinking Seth. I would like to apply this to America's thieving "friend" in the Middle East that I so frequently talk about...... Don't you agree?

Which friend? Is he committing acts of piracy on the high seas?

Does 'Gaza Aid Flotilla' ring any bells?

How am I supposed to know he's talking about Israel? He makes shit up all the time.

The "Gaza aid flotilla" incident wasn't piracy. To call it that is to pretend that words don't have meanings.

Umm, they stormed a civilian boat in international waters. I don't care if you want to argue in the context of this thread that it was morally justified, as morals outside the law are thoroughly subjective. But it was illegal, and there's been plenty of professional legal opinion to back that up. If you want to read all about it, there's a couple of hundred pages of it over at Ratskep in the Gaza Aid flotilla thread. I'm not going to dig through that for the evidence, as I can tell from your comments so far that you wouldn't even bother to consider it. What I really hate is people who confuse their own subjective moral opinion with the law.

[JimC]

Right. Raid the place, kill everyone holding a weapon, save the hostages, release the ships, and tell everyone still living to leave the area and never return. Then carpet bomb the place. Post some signs saying that the area is an interdicted zone subject to being bombed without notice. Sow a few hundred thousand land mines. Then watch from the sky, and if someone tries to reestablish a base there, carpet bomb the place again. Repeat as necessary, until they get the message and give up piracy.

I like your thinking Seth. I would like to apply this to America's thieving "friend" in the Middle East that I so frequently talk about...... Don't you agree?

Which friend? Is he committing acts of piracy on the high seas?

Does 'Gaza Aid Flotilla' ring any bells?

How am I supposed to know he's talking about Israel? He makes shit up all the time.

The "Gaza aid flotilla" incident wasn't piracy. To call it that is to pretend that words don't have meanings.

Not piracy, agreed, but still a completely over-the-top military response from a fairly trigger happy IDF which resulted in unecessary deaths.

This whole fucking debate gets so polarised, particularly in that the people who take "sides" cannot see the evils perpetrated by the opposite numbers. An apologist for the palestinians will never admit the inherent barbarity of rocket or suicide attacks against civilians, the anti-democratic nature of most of the Palestinian factions, or that Israel's enemies are backed by fanatical islamic fundamentalists.

Israel's defenders gloss over the poor treatment routinely dished out to Arab inhabitants of Israel, the religious underpinnings of a supposedly secular state, and the creeping settlement program, which is eating away at any remaining land which might be available to a Palestinian state created by a genuine peace treaty.

Both sides are locked into a hard line position, which is maintained by the alliances they have made over the years.

[sandinista]

Not piracy, agreed, but still a completely over-the-top military response from a fairly trigger happy IDF which resulted in unecessary deaths.

This whole fucking debate gets so polarised, particularly in that the people who take "sides" cannot see the evils perpetrated by the opposite numbers. An apologist for the palestinians will never admit the inherent barbarity of rocket or suicide attacks against civilians, the anti-democratic nature of most of the Palestinian factions, or that Israel's enemies are backed by fanatical islamic fundamentalists.

Israel's defenders gloss over the poor treatment routinely dished out to Arab inhabitants of Israel, the religious underpinnings of a supposedly secular state, and the creeping settlement program, which is eating away at any remaining land which might be available to a Palestinian state created by a genuine peace treaty.

Both sides are locked into a hard line position, which is maintained by the alliances they have made over the years.

Your acting like both sides are somehow equally repressed or equally mis-treated, that's simply not true.

[JimC]

Not piracy, agreed, but still a completely over-the-top military response from a fairly trigger happy IDF which resulted in unecessary deaths.

This whole fucking debate gets so polarised, particularly in that the people who take "sides" cannot see the evils perpetrated by the opposite numbers. An apologist for the palestinians will never admit the inherent barbarity of rocket or suicide attacks against civilians, the anti-democratic nature of most of the Palestinian factions, or that Israel's enemies are backed by fanatical islamic fundamentalists.

Israel's defenders gloss over the poor treatment routinely dished out to Arab inhabitants of Israel, the religious underpinnings of a supposedly secular state, and the creeping settlement program, which is eating away at any remaining land which might be available to a Palestinian state created by a genuine peace treaty.

Both sides are locked into a hard line position, which is maintained by the alliances they have made over the years.

Your acting like both sides are somehow equally repressed or equally mis-treated, that's simply not true.

Well, I am looking at the actual actions of both sides, as well as the imperatives that drive them. Western support for Israel is maintained and strengthened by every rocket fired randomly by Hamas from the Gaza strip, and by every suicide bombing. Everytime there is an absolutist rant by one of their backers, promising Jihad, or that Israel will drown in rivers of blood, or be removed from the face of the earth, the Israeli hawks smile with delight; they know they have been given the sort of PR spin that money simply cannot buy...

Without these factors, without the barbarism, islamofascism and absolutism of their enemies, support for Israel would ebb, and more and more people would take a hard look at their own repressive actions, and poor treatment of palestinians now and in the past, and Israel would soon start to feel the pressure for change...

[Robert_S]

Not piracy, agreed, but still a completely over-the-top military response from a fairly trigger happy IDF which resulted in unecessary deaths.

This whole fucking debate gets so polarised, particularly in that the people who take "sides" cannot see the evils perpetrated by the opposite numbers. An apologist for the palestinians will never admit the inherent barbarity of rocket or suicide attacks against civilians, the anti-democratic nature of most of the Palestinian factions, or that Israel's enemies are backed by fanatical islamic fundamentalists.

Israel's defenders gloss over the poor treatment routinely dished out to Arab inhabitants of Israel, the religious underpinnings of a supposedly secular state, and the creeping settlement program, which is eating away at any remaining land which might be available to a Palestinian state created by a genuine peace treaty.

Both sides are locked into a hard line position, which is maintained by the alliances they have made over the years.

Your acting like both sides are somehow equally repressed or equally mis-treated, that's simply not true.

Well, I am looking at the actual actions of both sides, as well as the imperatives that drive them. Western support for Israel is maintained and strengthened by every rocket fired randomly by Hamas from the Gaza strip, and by every suicide bombing. Everytime there is an absolutist rant by one of their backers, promising Jihad, or that Israel will drown in rivers of blood, or be removed from the face of the earth, the Israeli hawks smile with delight; they know they have been given the sort of PR spin that money simply cannot buy...

Without these factors, without the barbarism, islamofascism and absolutism of their enemies, support for Israel would ebb, and more and more people would take a hard look at their own repressive actions, and poor treatment of palestinians now and in the past, and Israel would soon start to feel the pressure for change...

Which side would most likely kill us all if we were to have a Ratz meet in their country?

[pErvinalia]

I like your thinking Seth. I would like to apply this to America's thieving "friend" in the Middle East that I so frequently talk about...... Don't you agree?

Which friend? Is he committing acts of piracy on the high seas?

Does 'Gaza Aid Flotilla' ring any bells?

How am I supposed to know he's talking about Israel? He makes shit up all the time.

The "Gaza aid flotilla" incident wasn't piracy. To call it that is to pretend that words don't have meanings.

Not piracy, agreed, but still a completely over-the-top military response from a fairly trigger happy IDF which resulted in unecessary deaths.

This whole fucking debate gets so polarised, particularly in that the people who take "sides" cannot see the evils perpetrated by the opposite numbers. An apologist for the palestinians will never admit the inherent barbarity of rocket or suicide attacks against civilians,

I can agree they are barbaric, but I can also understand that they have very little other options (other than just rolling over and getting totally fucked up the arse - an option which ALL peoples have a right to dismiss).

the anti-democratic nature of most of the Palestinian factions,

This relies on "democracy" being some objectively better form of government. The US is nominally a "democracy" but look what it's brought them: A giant corporatocracy.

or that Israel's enemies are backed by fanatical islamic fundamentalists.

True. Although if they weren't being crushed under the jackboots of the Israeli's they might not attract (or need) such support.

Both sides are locked into a hard line position, which is maintained by the alliances they have made over the years.

I don't agree. I've got no alliances (particularly here in Australia as you would understand). I've had more Jewish friends in my life than Arabs, and I suspect I might even be Jewish down the line there somewhere. I just look at it objectively, and conclude that the Palestinians are being horribly oppressed, and there is no reason that could validate that action for me.

[pErvinalia]

Not piracy, agreed, but still a completely over-the-top military response from a fairly trigger happy IDF which resulted in unecessary deaths.

This whole fucking debate gets so polarised, particularly in that the people who take "sides" cannot see the evils perpetrated by the opposite numbers. An apologist for the palestinians will never admit the inherent barbarity of rocket or suicide attacks against civilians, the anti-democratic nature of most of the Palestinian factions, or that Israel's enemies are backed by fanatical islamic fundamentalists.

Israel's defenders gloss over the poor treatment routinely dished out to Arab inhabitants of Israel, the religious underpinnings of a supposedly secular state, and the creeping settlement program, which is eating away at any remaining land which might be available to a Palestinian state created by a genuine peace treaty.

Both sides are locked into a hard line position, which is maintained by the alliances they have made over the years.

Your acting like both sides are somehow equally repressed or equally mis-treated, that's simply not true.

Well, I am looking at the actual actions of both sides, as well as the imperatives that drive them. Western support for Israel is maintained and strengthened by every rocket fired randomly by Hamas from the Gaza strip, and by every suicide bombing. Everytime there is an absolutist rant by one of their backers, promising Jihad, or that Israel will drown in rivers of blood, or be removed from the face of the earth, the Israeli hawks smile with delight; they know they have been given the sort of PR spin that money simply cannot buy...

Without these factors, without the barbarism, islamofascism and absolutism of their enemies, support for Israel would ebb, and more and more people would take a hard look at their own repressive actions, and poor treatment of palestinians now and in the past, and Israel would soon start to feel the pressure for change...

Which side would most likely kill us all if we were to have a Ratz meet in their country?

The extreme christian right in America would probably kill us all. Let's oppress the US.

[Robert_S]

Not piracy, agreed, but still a completely over-the-top military response from a fairly trigger happy IDF which resulted in unecessary deaths.

This whole fucking debate gets so polarised, particularly in that the people who take "sides" cannot see the evils perpetrated by the opposite numbers. An apologist for the palestinians will never admit the inherent barbarity of rocket or suicide attacks against civilians, the anti-democratic nature of most of the Palestinian factions, or that Israel's enemies are backed by fanatical islamic fundamentalists.

Israel's defenders gloss over the poor treatment routinely dished out to Arab inhabitants of Israel, the religious underpinnings of a supposedly secular state, and the creeping settlement program, which is eating away at any remaining land which might be available to a Palestinian state created by a genuine peace treaty.

Both sides are locked into a hard line position, which is maintained by the alliances they have made over the years.

Your acting like both sides are somehow equally repressed or equally mis-treated, that's simply not true.

Well, I am looking at the actual actions of both sides, as well as the imperatives that drive them. Western support for Israel is maintained and strengthened by every rocket fired randomly by Hamas from the Gaza strip, and by every suicide bombing. Everytime there is an absolutist rant by one of their backers, promising Jihad, or that Israel will drown in rivers of blood, or be removed from the face of the earth, the Israeli hawks smile with delight; they know they have been given the sort of PR spin that money simply cannot buy...

Without these factors, without the barbarism, islamofascism and absolutism of their enemies, support for Israel would ebb, and more and more people would take a hard look at their own repressive actions, and poor treatment of palestinians now and in the past, and Israel would soon start to feel the pressure for change...

Which side would most likely kill us all if we were to have a Ratz meet in their country?

The extreme christian right in America would probably kill us all. Let's oppress the US.

They're too fixated on Obama's secret deal with General Motors to establish Detroit as an Islamo-fascist-commie toehold in the US to bother with us right now. Israel's being shitty to the Palestinians and yes they need to put the "e" before the "a" in their silly little country's name, but I'd rather live there than anywhere else in the ME.

[Gawd]

Well, Robert you can't. You and I are not Jews. In Israel, we are unwelcome because of our race.

[Robert_S]

Well, Robert you can't. You and I are not Jews. In Israel, we are unwelcome because of our race.

Really? You think we couldn't pool our money together and have Dory rent out a hotel and convention center for us? Who here would be denied entry?

[Gawd]

Well, Robert you can't. You and I are not Jews. In Israel, we are unwelcome because of our race.

Really? You think we couldn't pool our money together and have Dory rent out a hotel and convention center for us? Who here would be denied entry?

If I were to reveal the things I say here to the Jewish border police, what do you think they would do to me? I'm an enemy of their state and I'm not Jewish. Look at what happened to Chomsky, and he's a full fledge Jew. Besides, we are not allowed to stay for any extended time since we are not Jews.

[Seth]

Well, Robert you can't. You and I are not Jews. In Israel, we are unwelcome because of our race.

Not unless you're an Arab terrorist.

I'm perfectly welcome in Israel.

[Seth]

The "Gaza aid flotilla" incident wasn't piracy. To call it that is to pretend that words don't have meanings.

Umm, they stormed a civilian boat in international waters.

No, they attempted to peacefully board a vessel according to international law to inspect it for contraband because the vessel was bound for one of their ports and they had reason to believe that contraband was aboard. They were met with violence and they defended themselves, just like our Coast Guard, or for that matter YOUR Coast Guard would do if attacked during a lawful boarding and inspection.

If they had attacked the vessel, it would now be at the bottom of the ocean with all hands.