America must be removed from the "Islamic World."

[JimC]

It's not as simple as that. I am not anti-American as such; I still value the American alliance with Oz, for example. However, people from the US need to listen to the pronouncements of their leaders (including Obama) about world events, listening as if they were non-Americans. There is a level of arrogance which may not be perceived from within...

There is likewise a level of arrogance that thinks that being non-American means one thinks about the world in a less insular way than Americans. Are Canberra residents better at imagining themselves as non-Australians?

Given that a large portion of them have been overseas, YES.

This is such ignorance. I love the complete bollocks some folks spew as if they know what they're talking about. Oh, Americans are so insular! Australians travel so much more! Really? Got the numbers?

In a 2005 Gallup survey one in 5 Americans had traveled outside the United States in the past year. That's 1 in 5 JUST IN THE PREVIOUS ONE YEAR - not talking about lifetimes.

So - what's the percentage of you non-insular Australians?

My original post in this exchange was not about the insularity or arrogance of American citizens, but about the arrogance and paternalism that often (not always) creeps into speeches by American politicians about world events. It links to American exceptionalism, and basically I don't think Americans get how tired the rest of the world is of this attitude from their leaders...

[Coito ergo sum]

Right. Raid the place, kill everyone holding a weapon, save the hostages, release the ships, and tell everyone still living to leave the area and never return. Then carpet bomb the place. Post some signs saying that the area is an interdicted zone subject to being bombed without notice. Sow a few hundred thousand land mines. Then watch from the sky, and if someone tries to reestablish a base there, carpet bomb the place again. Repeat as necessary, until they get the message and give up piracy.

I like your thinking Seth. I would like to apply this to America's thieving "friend" in the Middle East that I so frequently talk about...... Don't you agree?

Which friend? Is he committing acts of piracy on the high seas?

What? You already forgot about Israel and pirating the Gaza Flotilla already?

I didn't forget about anything - you never mentioned Israel until just now. We have more than one friend in the region. I'm certainly not going to pretend I know what you're alluding to until you spell it out.

And, Israel created a lawful blockade under international law. Israel did not engage in piracy.

Or how about how Israel shoots any fisherman that tries to fish offshore?

They don't shoot any fisherman that tries to fish offshore.

[

Or how Israel demands bribes for everything that enters Gaza?

They don't. And, Israel disengaged from Gaza 6 years ago, and abandoned all settlement activity there.

[

Or how Israel steals land, homes, and water wells from the Palestinians?

Pallywood nonsense. They don't steal land, homes or water wells from the Palestinians.

Anytime you want to back up your assertions with some evidence - like maybe some news reports from a non-Pallywood source - I'll stop laughing at your jokes long enough to look at them.

[Seth]

Right. Raid the place, kill everyone holding a weapon, save the hostages, release the ships, and tell everyone still living to leave the area and never return. Then carpet bomb the place. Post some signs saying that the area is an interdicted zone subject to being bombed without notice. Sow a few hundred thousand land mines. Then watch from the sky, and if someone tries to reestablish a base there, carpet bomb the place again. Repeat as necessary, until they get the message and give up piracy.

I like your thinking Seth. I would like to apply this to America's thieving "friend" in the Middle East that I so frequently talk about...... Don't you agree?

Which friend? Is he committing acts of piracy on the high seas?

What? You already forgot about Israel and pirating the Gaza Flotilla already?

Their waters, their rules. They boarded the vessels to search them for contraband and were attacked, and defended themselves. I'd have put a torpedo in the vessel right after evacuating my troops.

Or how about how Israel shoots any fisherman that tries to fish offshore?

I strongly suspect this is a lie. But, it's their territorial waters, and you don't get to fish there without permission. I suspect the only "fishermen" they actually shoot are Arab terrorists and drug-runners, and I'm fine with that.

Or how Israel demands bribes for everything that enters Gaza?

It's theirs. They won it in a war. They can demand anything they like.

Or how Israel steals land, homes, and water wells from the Palestinians?

Palestine doesn't exist. If it ever did, it was extinguished by the Arab-Israeli War. It's Israel now. People claiming Palestinian affiliation can beg asylum from Syria or Jordan if they like.

[Gawd]

I see I have 2 outstanding Zionists in this thread.

[Coito ergo sum]

I see I have 2 outstanding Zionists in this thread.

Hurray for Pallywood! http://www.seconddraft.org/index.php?op ... Itemid=199

When you show me something believable, I'll believe it.

I know I support the right of Israel to exist. That seems abundantly clear.

The Ottoman Empire died in World War 1 and the French Mandate and the British Mandate took over various territories that had been part of the Ottoman Empire - that had been around for what? 500 years before that?

Countries like Iraq, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and Israel - they didn't exist in the early 20th century. They were just lands that were once Ottoman, and before that they were Byzantine (recall, when the Muslims sacked Constantinople in 1453, they completed their job of forcibly occupying all the lands of the middle east - it's what they do - steal other people's land. That's something you don't seem to like - but, it's what the Muslims did - you don't care, though, about THAT).

So - in the 20s, 30s and 40s, British and the French started getting their League of Nations (and later UN) Mandate territories ready for self-government. So, Lebanon was carved out - Syria was caved out - Transjordan was carved out, Israel was carved out and Iraq was carved out. The dates aren't important.

Why do they object to Israel?

They object because Israel is Jewish, not Muslim.

So - you know what? Israel has just as much right to exist as Lebanon, or Jordan, or Iraq. The only difference with Israel is that it's Jewish and not Muslim. The land on which it sits is NOT FUCKING INHERENTLY MUSLIM.

In my book, it's not inherently Jewish either. The Christians have just as much of a religious claim to it as anybody. I think it should be secular. But, I won't make Israel be secular until all the dick-sucking Muslim countries become secular too, and stop it with their racist clamoring for genocide against "The Joos."

So - you're goddamn right I'm "Zionist." I LOVE Israel - and I hate the fucking nasty-ass Muslim governments that surround it. As long as Jordan and Iraq can be "Muslim countries," then Israel can be Jewish. Plus, Israel is a far better place. I can fly to Israel and stay in civilized country with nice people who welcome me to their country and say "have a nice time here." I don't get "death to America" bullshit from them - not like in Muslim countries.

And, let's also look at what your precious Muslims do. Look at Lebanon. That country was formed as CHRISTIAN country - for CHRISTIAN Arabs. And, the fucking Muslims have all but eliminated the Christians from Lebanon. Like they have done for 100s of years - you either submit to Islam and live dhimmi, or you die or you leave the fucking country. That's why so many Christian Lebanese fled.

Anything else?

[laklak]

Look at these sad sacks of shit. "Pirates", eh? Not a peg leg or parrot in the bunch, none of them have burning match cord braided in their beards, and there's nary an eye patch or cutlass to be seen. They look like the latest rap group from X-Factor. The one on the top left looks like my old yard boy in Swaziland.

[Gawd]

Hurray for me! http://www.rationalia.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=86

And my extensive evidence is even written by Jews.

I know I don't support the "right" of Israel to exist. That seems abundantly clear.

And now you go off into a tangent about the Zionist ideas of how the Palestinians are illegitimate while Jews have every claim to the land.

Then, you try to bring in the Nazis and WWII caused by white people to somehow try and make it seem like its okay for Jews to invade the area where the Palestinians were living. All the while, ignoring the fact that the Jews used violent means to invade Palestine and relegated Arabs to a second class race.

Bravo. Your illogic is just what I expect.

[Coito ergo sum]

Hurray for me! http://www.rationalia.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=86

And my extensive evidence is even written by Jews.

I know I don't support the "right" of Israel to exist. That seems abundantly clear.

If Israel doesn't have the right to exist, then neither does Lebanon and Jordan - yes?

And now you go off into a tangent about the Zionist ideas of how the Palestinians are illegitimate while Jews have every claim to the land.

Who said anything about Jews and Palestinians? I'm talking about the right of the Israeli state to exist as a Jewish state. If Jordan can be a Muslim state, then Israel can be a Jewish state. Whether one private citizen or another was tricked by a scheming Jew to sign off on a quitclaim deed or something is not a question I can answer.

Then, you try to bring in the Nazis and WWII caused by white people to somehow try and make it seem like its okay for Jews to invade the area where the Palestinians were living. All the while, ignoring the fact that the Jews used violent means to invade Palestine and relegated Arabs to a second class race.

Bravo. Your illogic is just what I expect.

I never said anything about Nazis and WW2. You're seeing things again.

Jews didn't invade the area - they immigrated. Jews and Christians can immigrate there. It's not Muslim-ville, you know. Islam's butt-ass smellin' skankness doesn't have a legal claim to the land. Fuck Islam. You have 5 or 6 "Muslim shitholes countries" formed out of the carcass of the Ottoman Empire (which was stolen from the Christians in the first place) and one Christian country (Lebanon) and one Jewish country (Israel). That, of course, isn't good enough for Muslims - you fuckwits have to have it all - it's gotta be "complete submission" to your butt-ramming religion, or it's "loo loo loo loo loo!!! Jihad!!! Die Joos and Xtians!" You've already fouled Lebanon and driven the Christians into the sea. Now just Israel to go.

[Seth]

Hurray for me! http://www.rationalia.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=86

And my extensive evidence is even written by Jews.

I know I don't support the "right" of Israel to exist. That seems abundantly clear.

If Israel doesn't have the right to exist, then neither does Lebanon and Jordan - yes?

And now you go off into a tangent about the Zionist ideas of how the Palestinians are illegitimate while Jews have every claim to the land.

Who said anything about Jews and Palestinians? I'm talking about the right of the Israeli state to exist as a Jewish state. If Jordan can be a Muslim state, then Israel can be a Jewish state. Whether one private citizen or another was tricked by a scheming Jew to sign off on a quitclaim deed or something is not a question I can answer.

Then, you try to bring in the Nazis and WWII caused by white people to somehow try and make it seem like its okay for Jews to invade the area where the Palestinians were living. All the while, ignoring the fact that the Jews used violent means to invade Palestine and relegated Arabs to a second class race.

Bravo. Your illogic is just what I expect.

I never said anything about Nazis and WW2. You're seeing things again.

Jews didn't invade the area - they immigrated. Jews and Christians can immigrate there. It's not Muslim-ville, you know. Islam's butt-ass smellin' skankness doesn't have a legal claim to the land. Fuck Islam. You have 5 or 6 "Muslim shitholes countries" formed out of the carcass of the Ottoman Empire (which was stolen from the Christians in the first place) and one Christian country (Lebanon) and one Jewish country (Israel). That, of course, isn't good enough for Muslims - you fuckwits have to have it all - it's gotta be "complete submission" to your butt-ramming religion, or it's "loo loo loo loo loo!!! Jihad!!! Die Joos and Xtians!" You've already fouled Lebanon and driven the Christians into the sea. Now just Israel to go.

Yeah man. People in the middle east (and everywhere else on earth) have been "stealing" land from other people through conquest since at least Hammurabi. Its called "the Right of Conquest."

[pErvinalia]

Right. Raid the place, kill everyone holding a weapon, save the hostages, release the ships, and tell everyone still living to leave the area and never return. Then carpet bomb the place. Post some signs saying that the area is an interdicted zone subject to being bombed without notice. Sow a few hundred thousand land mines. Then watch from the sky, and if someone tries to reestablish a base there, carpet bomb the place again. Repeat as necessary, until they get the message and give up piracy.

I like your thinking Seth. I would like to apply this to America's thieving "friend" in the Middle East that I so frequently talk about...... Don't you agree?

Nah. Israel isn't engaging in piracy. I say we need to loan Israel a bunch more nukes and aircraft at the moment, to induce the grasshopper-eating camel fuckers next door to cool their jets.

So a couple of tinpot pirates = evil, but heavily armed children killers = good?

[pErvinalia]

Right. Raid the place, kill everyone holding a weapon, save the hostages, release the ships, and tell everyone still living to leave the area and never return. Then carpet bomb the place. Post some signs saying that the area is an interdicted zone subject to being bombed without notice. Sow a few hundred thousand land mines. Then watch from the sky, and if someone tries to reestablish a base there, carpet bomb the place again. Repeat as necessary, until they get the message and give up piracy.

I like your thinking Seth. I would like to apply this to America's thieving "friend" in the Middle East that I so frequently talk about...... Don't you agree?

Which friend? Is he committing acts of piracy on the high seas?

Does 'Gaza Aid Flotilla' ring any bells?

[pErvinalia]

And, Israel created a lawful blockade under international law. Israel did not engage in piracy.

Or how Israel demands bribes for everything that enters Gaza?

They don't. And, Israel disengaged from Gaza 6 years ago, and abandoned all settlement activity there.

Umm, Israel (formerly with the help of Egypt - not sure where that's at at the moment) blockades Gaza.

Or how Israel steals land, homes, and water wells from the Palestinians?

Pallywood nonsense. They don't steal land, homes or water wells from the Palestinians.

What fairytale do you live in?

Anytime you want to back up your assertions with some evidence - like maybe some news reports from a non-Pallywood source - I'll stop laughing at your jokes long enough to look at them.

Are you claiming that settlement activity is a media/UN conspiracy? Huh?!?

[pErvinalia]

Right. Raid the place, kill everyone holding a weapon, save the hostages, release the ships, and tell everyone still living to leave the area and never return. Then carpet bomb the place. Post some signs saying that the area is an interdicted zone subject to being bombed without notice. Sow a few hundred thousand land mines. Then watch from the sky, and if someone tries to reestablish a base there, carpet bomb the place again. Repeat as necessary, until they get the message and give up piracy.

I like your thinking Seth. I would like to apply this to America's thieving "friend" in the Middle East that I so frequently talk about...... Don't you agree?

Which friend? Is he committing acts of piracy on the high seas?

What? You already forgot about Israel and pirating the Gaza Flotilla already?

Their waters, their rules.

WFT?!? It WAS INTERNATIONAL WATERS. Where do you guys get your news from?

They boarded the vessels to search them for contraband and were attacked, and defended themselves. I'd have put a torpedo in the vessel right after evacuating my troops.

Tolerism...

[sandinista]

What fairytale do you live in?

I'm still trying to figure that out.

[Coito ergo sum]

And, Israel created a lawful blockade under international law. Israel did not engage in piracy.

They did not.

Or how Israel demands bribes for everything that enters Gaza?

They don't. And, Israel disengaged from Gaza 6 years ago, and abandoned all settlement activity there.

Umm, Israel (formerly with the help of Egypt - not sure where that's at at the moment) blockades Gaza.

That's true. A blockade.

Or how Israel steals land, homes, and water wells from the Palestinians?

Pallywood nonsense. They don't steal land, homes or water wells from the Palestinians.

What fairytale do you live in?

It's called reality. Show a citation to some proof.

Anytime you want to back up your assertions with some evidence - like maybe some news reports from a non-Pallywood source - I'll stop laughing at your jokes long enough to look at them.

Are you claiming that settlement activity is a media/UN conspiracy? Huh?!?

Settlement activity? Oh, no. There has been settlement activity. Focus.

We were talking about "piracy" and we were also talking about "stealing homes and water wells." "Settlement activity" does not equal "stealing homes and water wells."

You have some credible source to back up "stealing homes and water wells," and "piracy?" Let's see it.