America must be removed from the "Islamic World."

[JimC]

Robert S wrote:

I'm nervous for the kids in the rest of the nations over there. They might end up throwing off their Shahs just to get Ayatollahs. But that's something the US should just wait and see about.

This is the key, I feel. Much of the world is rather sick of arrogant and paternalistic pronouncements from the guardians of truth and justice...

Oh, no, I just want whatever disaster is in the works to not be our fault.

Whatever disaster occurs will be blamed on the United States and its willing allies, UK and Israel. Any good results will have nothing to do with them. Well, at least if history is a guide...

It's not as simple as that. I am not anti-American as such; I still value the American alliance with Oz, for example. However, people from the US need to listen to the pronouncements of their leaders (including Obama) about world events, listening as if they were non-Americans. There is a level of arrogance which may not be perceived from within...

[Warren Dew]

Along those lines, I cannot understand why we haven't gone in and wiped out the viper's nest of pirates in Somalia like we did in Tripoli way back when. Now THAT'S worthy of committing our Airborne and Marines to, to rescue American citizens from savages. Then carpet-bomb the whole area whenever our satellites see someone trying to set up again. Fucking cowardice on the part of the President I suppose. An international interdiction zone off Somalia that simply sinks any vessel that's not under positive identification and control of military forces is what's needed as well. See 'em, shoot 'em, sink 'em and forget 'em.

The lack of an actual government in Somalia and the size of the area of the seas over which the pirates operate are among the problems. That said, if the U.S. Navy were given a free hand, the pirates' range could be curtailed by sinking their mother ships. The issue seems to be that Obama insists on a law enforcement response rather than a military response. Remember that SEAL sniper from last year? He'd been there for days waiting to shoot, but wasn't allowed to by the FBI until his target pointed a gun at a captive.

That's okay, more courageous nations like Korea and China are taking the initiative.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6OpuILcVck - South Korean special forces recapture a pirated ship
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/na ... 81532.html - Chinese Navy prevents pirates from taking South Korean ship

[Warren Dew]

It's not as simple as that. I am not anti-American as such; I still value the American alliance with Oz, for example. However, people from the US need to listen to the pronouncements of their leaders (including Obama) about world events, listening as if they were non-Americans. There is a level of arrogance which may not be perceived from within...

If it makes you feel any better, Obama is just as arrogant and pompous towards other Americans as he is towards the rest of the world.

That said, America is a big place, and most of the people here have never been outside of America, so "listening as if they were non-Americans" is not that easy.

In fairness, I think most Europeans have difficulty listening as if they were noneuropeans, as well.

[JimC]

It's not as simple as that. I am not anti-American as such; I still value the American alliance with Oz, for example. However, people from the US need to listen to the pronouncements of their leaders (including Obama) about world events, listening as if they were non-Americans. There is a level of arrogance which may not be perceived from within...

If it makes you feel any better, Obama is just as arrogant and pompous towards other Americans as he is towards the rest of the world.

That said, America is a big place, and most of the people here have never been outside of America, so "listening as if they were non-Americans" is not that easy.

In fairness, I think most Europeans have difficulty listening as if they were noneuropeans, as well.

Yes, I have become less and less impressed with Obama as time has gone on. His speeches are mere media sound bites writ large...

However, my point is not to add to the carping and often rancid criticism of the US by some here, but to be a "critical friend". Over the past few years, there has been a slow ebbing of automatic respect for America here in Oz, and in many other places in the world. So many statements by American politicians of various stripes (eg. over the Assange affair, and commentary on events in the Arab worls) have revealed a view that is both strangely blinkered, and isolated from world events, but also full of a sort of righteous certainty that American values are the be-all and end-all of any "free" society, and that all will be well if we just embrace an American vision of the world...

Probably overstated and unfair to a degree, but serious US analysts, I would bet, are uneasingly realising that this is increasingly how America looks to the rest of the world, old friendships notwithstanding...

[Coito ergo sum]

But I expect them to not only openly repudiate those aspects of Islam, I expect them to participate in the extirpation of those aspects, and those who engage in violence to further those aspects, from the face of the earth. After all, "peaceful" Muslims constantly plead their case and say that they aren't radical and that we should be able to coexist peacefully, and yet only on the rarest of occasions do any "peaceful" Muslims, or "peaceful" Muslim religious authorities openly and harshly criticize and repudiate the radical Muslims who are sowing terror and death across the planet.

As if you'd know whether they did or not, living in FoxNewsVille.

Utter and complete nonsense. I'm willing to bet we have more news sources than you folks do. You're in Australia, right?

Define "news"!

Define the word "define."

Anyway, it doesn't matter.

Then why'd you bring it up?

It's SeEth we are talking about here.

Then there wasn't a reason to make ignorant statements about things you plainly know nothing about.

He's admitted that Fox News is his primary "news" ( ) source.

Fox News is one of dozens of available television news sources, there hundreds of available AM, FM and Satellite radio stations available, internet radio and news websites by the hundreds, and in any major metropolitan area, dozens of print newspaper sources, dozens of print magazine news sources.

What most people complain about Fox News is not the news programs but the commentary programs. Glenn Beck is not, for example, a "news" source. He's a commentator with no pretense at fact-only news reporting. He is an opinion man. Many such persons exist on the various cable news channels, and they come from all political perspectives.

[Coito ergo sum]

It's not as simple as that. I am not anti-American as such; I still value the American alliance with Oz, for example. However, people from the US need to listen to the pronouncements of their leaders (including Obama) about world events, listening as if they were non-Americans. There is a level of arrogance which may not be perceived from within...

There is likewise a level of arrogance that thinks that being non-American means one thinks about the world in a less insular way than Americans. Are Canberra residents better at imagining themselves as non-Australians?

[Warren Dew]

However, my point is not to add to the carping and often rancid criticism of the US by some here, but to be a "critical friend". Over the past few years, there has been a slow ebbing of automatic respect for America here in Oz, and in many other places in the world. So many statements by American politicians of various stripes (eg. over the Assange affair, and commentary on events in the Arab worls) have revealed a view that is both strangely blinkered, and isolated from world events, but also full of a sort of righteous certainty that American values are the be-all and end-all of any "free" society, and that all will be well if we just embrace an American vision of the world...

I should clarify that I don't disagree with you at all. My explaining why America is that way doesn't at all imply that I approve of it.

Probably overstated and unfair to a degree, but serious US analysts, I would bet, are uneasingly realising that this is increasingly how America looks to the rest of the world, old friendships notwithstanding...

Serious analysts have realized this since it started happening a couple of decades ago. America has acted that way since the end of WWII; it's just that WWII allies forgave us for a few decades because of our part in helping them survive that war.

The question is, what can we do about that attitude? In my case, I recognize it because for about 5 years of my childhood, I lived outside the U.S. That's not something I'm likely to be able to do with my children, though, since I don't have the requisite foreign language skills.

[Coito ergo sum]

It just irks me, this "Islamic World" nonsense. We need a bigger movement of folks constantly correcting that there is no such thing as a part of this world that is inherently Islamic. There are parts of the world with lots of Muslims in it, but that doesn't make it "Islamic World" for the same reason that the US and Europe is not "Christian World." We need to stop that crap.

If radical Muslims have any say in the matter, the entire planet will be an "Islamic World." You need to understand

Please don't tell me what I "need to understand."

Why not?

1. I don't need to be condescended to by you.
2. It's insulting.
3. I already understood everything that you typed.

[Seth]

It just irks me, this "Islamic World" nonsense. We need a bigger movement of folks constantly correcting that there is no such thing as a part of this world that is inherently Islamic. There are parts of the world with lots of Muslims in it, but that doesn't make it "Islamic World" for the same reason that the US and Europe is not "Christian World." We need to stop that crap.

If radical Muslims have any say in the matter, the entire planet will be an "Islamic World." You need to understand

Please don't tell me what I "need to understand."

Why not?

1. I don't need to be condescended to by you.
2. It's insulting.
3. I already understood everything that you typed.

You need to understand that neither condescension or insult were intended.

[Seth]

Robert S wrote:

I'm nervous for the kids in the rest of the nations over there. They might end up throwing off their Shahs just to get Ayatollahs. But that's something the US should just wait and see about.

This is the key, I feel. Much of the world is rather sick of arrogant and paternalistic pronouncements from the guardians of truth and justice...

Oh, no, I just want whatever disaster is in the works to not be our fault.

Whatever disaster occurs will be blamed on the United States and its willing allies, UK and Israel. Any good results will have nothing to do with them. Well, at least if history is a guide...

It's not as simple as that. I am not anti-American as such; I still value the American alliance with Oz, for example. However, people from the US need to listen to the pronouncements of their leaders (including Obama) about world events, listening as if they were non-Americans. There is a level of arrogance which may not be perceived from within...

Well, yes of course there is, but what makes you think we have any say in what they say? If I had my druthers, Obama would be pronouncing "would you like fries with that" somewhere in Venezuela. Our leaders lie to us as much as just about any leaders anywhere. That's been true since before Teddy Roosevelt and Woodrow Wilson came along. Only a couple of presidents have come anywhere near the sort of candor we deserve, Reagan being one of them, and Kennedy being another. Before then, you have to go back to the Founders, although Warren Harding and Calvin Coolidge had the right economic idea, cut the government in half and thereby stimulate the "Roaring 20s."

On the other hand, American "exceptionalism" is a national belief, and not one that is unjustified. I have no real problem with my government telling socialists and dictators that they are wrong and evil, and I have no problem with our advocating of US-style republicanism. It's the best system ever devised by mankind. That's just a simple fact. If everyone followed it, as originally designed, things would be much more peaceful worldwide.

[Seth]

Along those lines, I cannot understand why we haven't gone in and wiped out the viper's nest of pirates in Somalia like we did in Tripoli way back when. Now THAT'S worthy of committing our Airborne and Marines to, to rescue American citizens from savages. Then carpet-bomb the whole area whenever our satellites see someone trying to set up again. Fucking cowardice on the part of the President I suppose. An international interdiction zone off Somalia that simply sinks any vessel that's not under positive identification and control of military forces is what's needed as well. See 'em, shoot 'em, sink 'em and forget 'em.

The lack of an actual government in Somalia and the size of the area of the seas over which the pirates operate are among the problems. That said, if the U.S. Navy were given a free hand, the pirates' range could be curtailed by sinking their mother ships. The issue seems to be that Obama insists on a law enforcement response rather than a military response. Remember that SEAL sniper from last year? He'd been there for days waiting to shoot, but wasn't allowed to by the FBI until his target pointed a gun at a captive.

There were TWO SEAL snipers, and they held fire till the situation deteriorated and they had a shot. But I agree that the situation involved way too much arm-chair quarterbacking from Washington. This is thanks to our communications capability and the lack of trust in our military officers. Used to be that the captain of a US military vessel was vested with the authority to summarily deal with pirates and hang them from a yardarm.

Sadly, I hear that the four hostages on the yacht were all killed before the SEALs could save them. Last report I had was that the pirates fired an RPG at a ship and the SEALs attacked and ended up in a knife fight with one of the pirates inside the yacht, but all four Americans were dead already.

This SHOULD be the trigger for a night-time invasion of the pirate's nest.

[JimC]

Seth wrote:

On the other hand, American "exceptionalism" is a national belief, and not one that is unjustified. I have no real problem with my government telling socialists and dictators that they are wrong and evil, and I have no problem with our advocating of US-style republicanism. It's the best system ever devised by mankind. That's just a simple fact. If everyone followed it, as originally designed, things would be much more peaceful worldwide.

JimC wrote:

...There is a level of arrogance which may not be perceived from within......

[JimC]

Along those lines, I cannot understand why we haven't gone in and wiped out the viper's nest of pirates in Somalia like we did in Tripoli way back when. Now THAT'S worthy of committing our Airborne and Marines to, to rescue American citizens from savages. Then carpet-bomb the whole area whenever our satellites see someone trying to set up again. Fucking cowardice on the part of the President I suppose. An international interdiction zone off Somalia that simply sinks any vessel that's not under positive identification and control of military forces is what's needed as well. See 'em, shoot 'em, sink 'em and forget 'em.

The lack of an actual government in Somalia and the size of the area of the seas over which the pirates operate are among the problems. That said, if the U.S. Navy were given a free hand, the pirates' range could be curtailed by sinking their mother ships. The issue seems to be that Obama insists on a law enforcement response rather than a military response. Remember that SEAL sniper from last year? He'd been there for days waiting to shoot, but wasn't allowed to by the FBI until his target pointed a gun at a captive.

There were TWO SEAL snipers, and they held fire till the situation deteriorated and they had a shot. But I agree that the situation involved way too much arm-chair quarterbacking from Washington. This is thanks to our communications capability and the lack of trust in our military officers. Used to be that the captain of a US military vessel was vested with the authority to summarily deal with pirates and hang them from a yardarm.

Sadly, I hear that the four hostages on the yacht were all killed before the SEALs could save them. Last report I had was that the pirates fired an RPG at a ship and the SEALs attacked and ended up in a knife fight with one of the pirates inside the yacht, but all four Americans were dead already.

This SHOULD be the trigger for a night-time invasion of the pirate's nest.

I agree that there should be much tougher action on the pirates, although it would be better if it were done by a coalition of countries rather than the US acting alone. However, let's not go OTT with absurdities such as carpet bombing. As well as stronger action against the pirate ships, it may well be valuable to attack their bases, but in a very precise and targetted way that minimises civilian casualties.

[sandinista]

Funny thing, I can say the same things about Jews and Christians. Except Jews And Christians use missiles and don't have the decency of killing themselves in the process.

I'm not aware of any Jewish or Christian suicide squads or plans to institute a world-wide theocracy through the use of violence, but If such people exist, they deserve to be repudiated and reviled as much as radical Muslims.

Who cares if they are Jews/Christians/Muslims or neo-conservative hawks. It's all the same shit.

It is all the same shit. Who needs suicide bombers when you have an air force.

[Coito ergo sum]

I think American exceptionalism is a concept that has been bastardized of late. It's not meant to suggest a "superiority." It's the suggestion of more of a "qualitative difference." The term "exceptional" in this regard is traceable back to Alexis de Tocqueville, who described the US as having emerged from the revolution developing a uniquely American ideology, based on liberty, egalitarianism, individualism, populism and laissez-faire. These were unique qualities of the US in de Tocqueville's time. The other nation that tried it - France - fell under the Napoleonic boot soon after its revolution and needed time for it to kick in. So, indeed, when the term was in its genesis, the US was indeed "exceptional" in this regard, the rest of the world living under the kings and other despots.

Interestingly enough, the term "American exceptionalism" itself was used by members of the American Communist Party in the 1920s, in reference to their belief that "thanks to its natural resources, industrial capacity, and absence of rigid class distinctions, the United States of America might for a long while avoid the crisis that must eventually befall every capitalist society."

One of de Tocqueville's early arguments for American exceptionalism was the immigration issue, and this still remains true today. America remains particularly attractive to immigrants because of its perceived economic and political opportunities. Since its founding, many immigrants have risen to the top in business, media and politics, not to mention the success of their children. The "American Dream" describes the perceived abundance of opportunities in the American system. Sheer tidal wave of people who want to come to the US is clear evidence that something is exceptional about it. If it wasn't, then people would just as well like to move to most any country as opposed to the US.