Could the Chinese Become Worse Than The Nazis?

[Warren Dew]

I know people who have worked in China. Whatever the typical "worker" gets from the gubmint ain't even close to what an American would consider "well," let alone "extremely" well.

The per capita income in China is an order of magnitude less than in the U.S. Of course people in China are not living at U.S. standards, whether they're a retiree paid by the governmentor a worker in the private sector.

It will take a few more decades for them to build out of the hole Mao put them in.

[Atheist-Lite]

I know people who have worked in China. Whatever the typical "worker" gets from the gubmint ain't even close to what an American would consider "well," let alone "extremely" well.

The per capita income in China is an order of magnitude less than in the U.S. Of course people in China are not living at U.S. standards, whether they're a retiree paid by the governmentor a worker in the private sector.

It will take a few more decades for them to build out of the hole Mao put them in.

It won't take half as long if they used their productive capacity to supply their own markets rather than markets abroad?

[Warren Dew]

It won't take half as long if they used their productive capacity to supply their own markets rather than markets abroad?

They need trade surpluses with the U.S. to pay for their trade deficits with the oil producing states. They're much more dependent on imported energy than the U.S. is. Without that imported energy, they wouldn't be able to build their way out of the hole at all.

[Atheist-Lite]

It won't take half as long if they used their productive capacity to supply their own markets rather than markets abroad?

They need trade surpluses with the U.S. to pay for their trade deficits with the oil producing states. They're much more dependent on imported energy than the U.S. is. Without that imported energy, they wouldn't be able to build their way out of the hole at all.

That equation may be changing in the near future....just saying....reading the news and thinking.

[Seth]

Hey Seth, do you know what people think when they see "Made in America"? They see crap. Nobody buys stuff with that label on it because they know it's overpriced and low quality. Just look at all those American cars......

Yeah, nobody buys Microsoft Windows or other Microsoft software, or even Apple devices and software, do they?

[Seth]

Hey Seth, do you know what people think when they see "Made in America"? They see crap. Nobody buys stuff with that label on it because they know it's overpriced and low quality. Just look at all those American cars......

To be fair, my wife's Honda Odyssey, which is the top rated minivan, is made in Alabama. Nonunionized U.S. labor can do a pretty good job when making things where people are willing to pay a price for quality.

The Chinese generally compete in markets where the consumer simply isn't willing to pay the price that would be required with American labor. Clothing is a good example: use American garment workers and you might as well buy tailor made clothes. Very few Americans are willing to pay those prices for clothes.

When I heard that the last American shirt factory (Hathaway) went out of business, I went in search of a couple of Hathaway shirts and bought them in protest. But you're right, slave labor in China is much, much cheaper.

[Seth]

You can't compete with the chinese slave labor force in a ethical manner.

You should visit China some time. The labor force is in many ways freer than the U.S. labor force. China just happens to have less money per person.

Oh give me a fucking break. If you saw workers in China who looked all happy and junk, it's because that's all you were ALLOWED to see, and it's pure Communist propaganda.

You'll never get a look at the Chinese factories that are kept hidden from even the Chinese.

[Warren Dew]

Oh give me a fucking break. If you saw workers in China who looked all happy and junk, it's because that's all you were ALLOWED to see, and it's pure Communist propaganda.

Your opinion of China was true in the 1970s. In the early 2000s we were able to go all the places we could go in the U.S. Obviously we weren't allowed onto military bases, but that's true in the U.S. too.

The fact is, when Deng took over, he started a process of economic liberalization that has now gone farther than the U.S. People had a choice between keeping their government insured "iron rice bowls" and government jobs, or taking their chances on the new free economy. At first only a brave few took advantage of that offer, but by the mid 1980s, private business was starting to overtake state owned business. The reasons were obvious: you could go to a privately owned restaurant and get prompt service and good food, because they wanted you to come back, or you could go to a state owned restaurant and wait half an hour at a dirty table before a waiter deigned to take your order. A decade later, the economy was almost entirely private, except for a few aging factories full of old school communist workers - you know, the kind that pretended to work instead of actually working. By now, those folks have all retired - and fortunately are sufficiently few in number that the state can support them without any trouble, given the now booming economy.

The idea that there's still "slave labor" in China is propaganda spread by U.S. labor unions who are afraid of fair competition, and by progressives who are unwilling to admit how effectively free market approaches have been in driving the economic boom in China.

[Seth]

Oh give me a fucking break. If you saw workers in China who looked all happy and junk, it's because that's all you were ALLOWED to see, and it's pure Communist propaganda.

Your opinion of China was true in the 1970s. In the early 2000s we were able to go all the places we could go in the U.S. Obviously we weren't allowed onto military bases, but that's true in the U.S. too.

The fact is, when Deng took over, he started a process of economic liberalization that has now gone farther than the U.S. People had a choice between keeping their government insured "iron rice bowls" and government jobs, or taking their chances on the new free economy. At first only a brave few took advantage of that offer, but by the mid 1980s, private business was starting to overtake state owned business. The reasons were obvious: you could go to a privately owned restaurant and get prompt service and good food, because they wanted you to come back, or you could go to a state owned restaurant and wait half an hour at a dirty table before a waiter deigned to take your order. A decade later, the economy was almost entirely private, except for a few aging factories full of old school communist workers - you know, the kind that pretended to work instead of actually working. By now, those folks have all retired - and fortunately are sufficiently few in number that the state can support them without any trouble, given the now booming economy.

The idea that there's still "slave labor" in China is propaganda spread by U.S. labor unions who are afraid of fair competition, and by progressives who are unwilling to admit how effectively free market approaches have been in driving the economic boom in China.

I'm thinking that this is an example of "liberal fascism" in that I seriously doubt that the Chinese Communist Central Committee is doing anything but regulating "free markets" and "private business" in the most intense and detailed manner, in the same way that Hitler's Nazis micromanaged everything in Germany that was ostensibly "free enterprise."

I'd have to see substantial credible proof that Deng has given up Communist aspirations or control of the economy in any substantive fashion. I'm guessing that the Communists can take anything from anyone any time they like, including their lives, without so much as a by-your-leave, and that any "economic freedom" is highly dependent on supporting both the ideological aims and the military expansion of the Chinese Communists.

Sorry if I don't believe you, CES, but I've heard too many reports of the Chinese government killing it's own people with impunity to believe that it's anything but a hard-line Communist state that is simply showing a facade of economic liberalization.

Now, I agree that the good news is that the Chinese people may be becoming accustomed to and desirous of both economic and political liberty and freedom from Marxism and Communism, but it's going to be a while before it comes to fruition, and I expect many Chinese will die in the attempt to secure their liberty, as seems to be happening right now with those who are protesting the dictatorship they live under.

[Gawd]

Hey Seth, do you know what people think when they see "Made in America"? They see crap. Nobody buys stuff with that label on it because they know it's overpriced and low quality. Just look at all those American cars......

Yeah, nobody buys Microsoft Windows or other Microsoft software, or even Apple devices and software, do they?

You do realize that nothing from Microsoft or Apple is actually "Made in America" right? They both use Foxxcon in China to make all their products.

[Warren Dew]

I'm thinking that this is an example of "liberal fascism" in that I seriously doubt that the Chinese Communist Central Committee is doing anything but regulating "free markets" and "private business" in the most intense and detailed manner, in the same way that Hitler's Nazis micromanaged everything in Germany that was ostensibly "free enterprise."

I'd have to see substantial credible proof that Deng has given up Communist aspirations or control of the economy in any substantive fashion. I'm guessing that the Communists can take anything from anyone any time they like, including their lives, without so much as a by-your-leave, and that any "economic freedom" is highly dependent on supporting both the ideological aims and the military expansion of the Chinese Communists.

Sorry if I don't believe you, CES, but I've heard too many reports of the Chinese government killing it's own people with impunity to believe that it's anything but a hard-line Communist state that is simply showing a facade of economic liberalization.

Now, I agree that the good news is that the Chinese people may be becoming accustomed to and desirous of both economic and political liberty and freedom from Marxism and Communism, but it's going to be a while before it comes to fruition, and I expect many Chinese will die in the attempt to secure their liberty, as seems to be happening right now with those who are protesting the dictatorship they live under.

China has a long history of a mercantile economy - millenia, as opposed to centuries for Europe. An economy made up of small businesses is the natural state for the Chinese. Mao's Communism certainly suppressed that for a time on the mainland, but not for long enough that the people had forgotten their ways.

Communist economic policies, such as the ironically named "great leap forward" were of course disastrous for the Chinese economy. Some in the Communist party were smart enough to recognize that, including Deng, who tried to liberalize the economy after the great leap "forward" had demonstrated just how bankrupt Communist economic ideas were. For his efforts, Deng was purged as a capitalist by Mao during the Cultural Revolution. After Mao died, however, Deng eventually gained power and was able to start his efforts again.

Now, you are correct that Deng wanted to maintain some state control of the economy, though it was far from micromanagement - stifling businesses through regulation is an American invention that China hadn't adopted yet. Deng's concern was different: he was happy with independent small businesses, but not with independent large businesses. Of course, in a free market, successful small businesses often become large, and this happened so fast that Deng put the brakes on to cool things down a couple of times.

However, Deng isn't alive any more. He handed power over in 1992, and died in 1997 at the age of 92. Subsequent leaders proceeded further with market reforms, to the point where the Chinese economy is now closer to a true free market than the U.S. economy. That said, the government does still influence large businesses, though perhaps less than the U.S. government does with large businesses in the U.S., who get all sorts of handouts and are subject to all sorts of regulation.

Note that I'm not claiming that the Chinese have a great degree of political freedom; political freedom is a different thing from economic freedom. While not even the stodgiest party members give more than lip service to Marxist economics any more, they most certainly tolerate little dissent. Of course, with their economy going so well, there really isn't much popular support for dissent to begin with.

Oh, and I'm Warren. Coito is over thataway.

[Warren Dew]

You do realize that nothing from Microsoft or Apple is actually "Made in America" right? They both use Foxxcon in China to make all their products.

The highest value components of computers - the processors - are made in the U.S. Other high value components, such as memory chips and flat screens, tend to be made in Japan and Korea. Final assembly does tend to be done in Taiwan and China, but that only accounts for maybe 10% of the dollars the consumer pays.

Microsoft, of course, sells software, much of which is still written in the U.S. and delivered over U.S. network links. They are offshoring more of their software writing, but to India rather than to China.

[JimC]

I'm thinking that this is an example of "liberal fascism" in that I seriously doubt that the Chinese Communist Central Committee is doing anything but regulating "free markets" and "private business" in the most intense and detailed manner, in the same way that Hitler's Nazis micromanaged everything in Germany that was ostensibly "free enterprise."

I'd have to see substantial credible proof that Deng has given up Communist aspirations or control of the economy in any substantive fashion. I'm guessing that the Communists can take anything from anyone any time they like, including their lives, without so much as a by-your-leave, and that any "economic freedom" is highly dependent on supporting both the ideological aims and the military expansion of the Chinese Communists.

Sorry if I don't believe you, CES, but I've heard too many reports of the Chinese government killing it's own people with impunity to believe that it's anything but a hard-line Communist state that is simply showing a facade of economic liberalization.

Now, I agree that the good news is that the Chinese people may be becoming accustomed to and desirous of both economic and political liberty and freedom from Marxism and Communism, but it's going to be a while before it comes to fruition, and I expect many Chinese will die in the attempt to secure their liberty, as seems to be happening right now with those who are protesting the dictatorship they live under.

China has a long history of a mercantile economy - millenia, as opposed to centuries for Europe. An economy made up of small businesses is the natural state for the Chinese. Mao's Communism certainly suppressed that for a time on the mainland, but not for long enough that the people had forgotten their ways.

Communist economic policies, such as the ironically named "great leap forward" were of course disastrous for the Chinese economy. Some in the Communist party were smart enough to recognize that, including Deng, who tried to liberalize the economy after the great leap "forward" had demonstrated just how bankrupt Communist economic ideas were. For his efforts, Deng was purged as a capitalist by Mao during the Cultural Revolution. After Mao died, however, Deng eventually gained power and was able to start his efforts again.

Now, you are correct that Deng wanted to maintain some state control of the economy, though it was far from micromanagement - stifling businesses through regulation is an American invention that China hadn't adopted yet. Deng's concern was different: he was happy with independent small businesses, but not with independent large businesses. Of course, in a free market, successful small businesses often become large, and this happened so fast that Deng put the brakes on to cool things down a couple of times.

However, Deng isn't alive any more. He handed power over in 1992, and died in 1997 at the age of 92. Subsequent leaders proceeded further with market reforms, to the point where the Chinese economy is now closer to a true free market than the U.S. economy. That said, the government does still influence large businesses, though perhaps less than the U.S. government does with large businesses in the U.S., who get all sorts of handouts and are subject to all sorts of regulation.

Note that I'm not claiming that the Chinese have a great degree of political freedom; political freedom is a different thing from economic freedom. While not even the stodgiest party members give more than lip service to Marxist economics any more, they most certainly tolerate little dissent. Of course, with their economy going so well, there really isn't much popular support for dissent to begin with.

Oh, and I'm Warren. Coito is over thataway.

That well-written post accords well with a number of serious, sober media reports I have read in recent years...

And I know you are Warren, not CES, unlike Seth...

Your posts are far too short to be him...

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Now going through Wal-Mart looking for "Made in Canada".

[Warren Dew]

And I know you are Warren, not CES, unlike Seth...

Your posts are far too short to be him...

To be fair, the CES comment might have been humor I was too dense to pick up on. On, uh, "other forums", we rarely got into this level of detailed discussion, and in most of the broad brush political arguments, Seth and I were generally in agreement.