23 Things They Don’t Tell You About Capitalism
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Re: 23 Things They Don’t Tell You About Capitalism
But but, DICTIONARY definitions are not reality based.
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Re: 23 Things They Don’t Tell You About Capitalism
SETH, can you please get me some reliable references on the Communards stealing private property /nationalisation ( for want of a better word )
I read most the texts on the Commune in uni , even some french ones, and would like to know where you got your information.
TIA
Do you know the text that describes the Versaille soldiers burning the schools with the students inside? never could find that one.
I read most the texts on the Commune in uni , even some french ones, and would like to know where you got your information.
TIA
Do you know the text that describes the Versaille soldiers burning the schools with the students inside? never could find that one.
Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies. ~ Marx
Do you really think it is weakness that yields to temptation? I tell you that there are terrible temptations which it requires strength, strength and courage to yield to. ~ Oscar Wilde
Love Me I'm A Liberal
The Communist Menace
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Do you really think it is weakness that yields to temptation? I tell you that there are terrible temptations which it requires strength, strength and courage to yield to. ~ Oscar Wilde
Love Me I'm A Liberal
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Re: 23 Things They Don’t Tell You About Capitalism
One of the basic ideas of Communism is that all property and all means of production are not held privately. Communism is, basically, socialism that abolishes private ownership and seeks to create a classless society. I think a better way to go about this would be ask you what communist texts state that communism allows for private ownership of property and the means of production?.Morticia. wrote:SETH, can you please get me some reliable references on the Communards stealing private property /nationalisation ( for want of a better word )
I read most the texts on the Commune in uni , even some french ones, and would like to know where you got your information.
TIA
Do you know the text that describes the Versaille soldiers burning the schools with the students inside? never could find that one.
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Re: 23 Things They Don’t Tell You About Capitalism
Coito ergo sum wrote:One of the basic ideas of Communism is that all property and all means of production are not held privately. Communism is, basically, socialism that abolishes private ownership and seeks to create a classless society. I think a better way to go about this would be ask you what communist texts state that communism allows for private ownership of property and the means of production?.Morticia. wrote:SETH, can you please get me some reliable references on the Communards stealing private property /nationalisation ( for want of a better word )
I read most the texts on the Commune in uni , even some french ones, and would like to know where you got your information.
TIA
Do you know the text that describes the Versaille soldiers burning the schools with the students inside? never could find that one.
I believe russia post 17 was a mixture of private and social enterprise.
A lot of people have been scared by the boogy man of losing rights to private property ( but what is property, does that mean land? And of course property rights in modern western capitalist states is not what peopel generally think it is, there are many forms of property rights ) under forms of socialism and as far as I know, not having read everything ever written, private property is perfectly ok.New Economic Policy (NEP)
This policy was initiated in 1921 to replace the policy of War Communism, which had prevailed during the Russian civil war and led to declines in agricultural and (non-military) industrial production. To revive the economy after the civil war, the NEP was adopted as a temporary measure allowing a limited revival of free trade inside the R.S.F.S.R. and foreign concessions alongside the nationalized and state-controlled sectors of the economy. Nepmen were those people who used the economic system for extreme profiteering. The NEP was succeeded in 1928 by the first five-year plan and subsequent forced collectivisation of the land, although the Stalin regime continued until 1930 to say that NEP was still in effect.
This policy was adopted, on Lenin’s initiative, by the Tenth Congress of the Communist Party of Russia, early in 1921, and reinforced at the Tenth Party Conference in May of the same year. Not only had the post-war revolutionary wave in Europe subsided, especially after the failure of the Red Army March on Warsaw, but relations between urban and rural Russia had become strained to the breaking point.
The Tenth Congress met during the Kronstadt rebellion. During the Congress, Lenin proposed a policy of substituting a tax instead of requisitions; of allowing the peasantry to dispose of their surplus within the limits of "local trade"; of allowing the development of capitalist concessions to a delimited extent, and of state capitalism. This state capitalism, in industry and agriculture, was allowed a considerable field of possibilities in which to develop, while the proletarian government retained control of the key industries, state banking; that nationalization of the land remained and that the state held a monopoly of foreign trade.
The policy was created to mend ties between the workers and peasants, and was necessary for the Russia people to survive after the ravages of two destructive wars had decimated the country. Socialist economics were impossible to maintain in such conditions, though for a limited period the Socialist state could still exist, holding over in wait for the European revolutions.
http://www.marxists.org/glossary/terms/n/e.htm
The scare mongering is of course done by those who profit by consumerism and materialism.
Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies. ~ Marx
Do you really think it is weakness that yields to temptation? I tell you that there are terrible temptations which it requires strength, strength and courage to yield to. ~ Oscar Wilde
Love Me I'm A Liberal
The Communist Menace
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Do you really think it is weakness that yields to temptation? I tell you that there are terrible temptations which it requires strength, strength and courage to yield to. ~ Oscar Wilde
Love Me I'm A Liberal
The Communist Menace
Running The World
Re: 23 Things They Don’t Tell You About Capitalism
.Morticia. wrote:SETH, can you please get me some reliable references on the Communards stealing private property /nationalisation ( for want of a better word )
They seized the tools workmen had pawned (which were the private property of the pawnshop owners), they seized the rents due (by making it illegal for property owners to collect rents owed to them, which is the same thing as seizing the money for the benefit of the commune), they seized all church property. They didn't raid the banks however. And they lasted all of two months. Hardly a viable philosophy I'd say. At least they mostly got THEMSELVES killed, unlike most socialist tyrannies, which kill counterrevolutionaries and traitors to the cause, like Stalin and Mao.
Do you deny that they did the above?I read most the texts on the Commune in uni , even some french ones, and would like to know where you got your information.
No, but it wouldn't surprise me. The Communards were treated quite brutally and were executed in large numbers.Do you know the text that describes the Versaille soldiers burning the schools with the students inside? never could find that one.
Marx believed that their mistake was in not being sufficiently brutal in installing the regime. Indeed, the Paris Commune was one of the key factors in his insistence on violent revolutionary overthrow of the bourgeoisie seen in his later work. He made no bones about wanting to destroy them and seize everything they owned, not just the means of production, and said so in so many words in the Communist Manifesto. That's because he felt that the only way that the dictatorship of the proletariat would succeed is if it utterly destroyed even the smallest vestiges of the imperialist system it was replacing if it hoped to succeed in persuading the proletariat that social change was real. This is why the Russian Marxists systematically destroyed and seized all the trappings of the wealthy and murdered intellectuals and the aristocracy, including the Romanov family. Pol Pot did exactly the same thing with the killing fields and reeducation camps.
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"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth
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Re: 23 Things They Don’t Tell You About Capitalism
Morticia - I gather from your posts that you are suggesting that there are more than one kind of communism and that some of them are just fine. That's cool - but, what are the good kinds of communism like? Is there a source you would recommend that we can read that would describe the system you're familiar with that does not entail the loss of property rights?
Also, I reject the notion of "scaring" or "scaremongering." It's a question of one's understanding of communism resulting in a distaste for it. For me, what I've read on the subject - which is not a meager amount - leaves me with two primary feelings on the subject: (1) communism is based on fundamentally flawed principles and could not achieve its stated goals, and (2) it's stated goals are undesirable. Those two feelings, for me, apply to every sort of communism I've read about, or which has been described to me by anyone supporting the idea.
I haven't been scared into my views - I am not afraid of communism. I tell you truthfully that the more I learned about communism, the less appealing it became, and the less viable I have concluded it is.
So - let's assume I'm not scared of it. Let's assume I am approaching this subject rationally. You seem to have subscribed to a sort of communism - since I and others seem to be describing your sort of communism incorrectly - can you help us understand the sort of communism you like, and you think is good? Is there a writer or a publication that we can look to for more detail, if it's too much for you to describe on a forum like this?
Also, I reject the notion of "scaring" or "scaremongering." It's a question of one's understanding of communism resulting in a distaste for it. For me, what I've read on the subject - which is not a meager amount - leaves me with two primary feelings on the subject: (1) communism is based on fundamentally flawed principles and could not achieve its stated goals, and (2) it's stated goals are undesirable. Those two feelings, for me, apply to every sort of communism I've read about, or which has been described to me by anyone supporting the idea.
I haven't been scared into my views - I am not afraid of communism. I tell you truthfully that the more I learned about communism, the less appealing it became, and the less viable I have concluded it is.
So - let's assume I'm not scared of it. Let's assume I am approaching this subject rationally. You seem to have subscribed to a sort of communism - since I and others seem to be describing your sort of communism incorrectly - can you help us understand the sort of communism you like, and you think is good? Is there a writer or a publication that we can look to for more detail, if it's too much for you to describe on a forum like this?
Re: 23 Things They Don’t Tell You About Capitalism
That's because Marxists don't have the intelligence or understanding to be able to rigorously defend their ideology, and they know it, so they propagandize instead..Morticia. wrote:1. Marxists typically don't waste their time arguing. Especially with abusive reactionaries.
Like propagandizing other moronic proletarians.Personally, I prefer to spend my time listening and doing actual political works.
It's all fruit of the poisonous tree.2. Marxism is about more than Marx and Engles. Try Lenin, try Trotsky, try the frankfurt school, try the situationialists, there are a hundred different left schools of thought.
Funny, Stalin called himself a Communist. Why should I believe you, not him?etc etc
and for the last time, Stalin was not socialist. None of his policies were socialist in any way. They were Statist.
And he became a Statist of necessity, as socialism collapsed around him and he had to resort to ever-more statist and authoritarian tyranny to try to keep the system from collapsing completely...oh, and because he was a megalomaniacal tyrant as well.
Just as I said, all socialism, and indeed all collectivism ends up failing at State Socialism because the fundamental theory is fatally flawed.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S
"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth
© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.
"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth
© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.
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Re: 23 Things They Don’t Tell You About Capitalism
because stalin was a lying dictatorial genocidal bastard who was trying to legitimise his policies under the acceptable language of marx and lenin and the spirit of socialism
And it suited the American power elite to label him a marxist/communist too to further their anti- socialist propoganda program
that's why.
But you would know that because you know real politics. ;wink:
And it suited the American power elite to label him a marxist/communist too to further their anti- socialist propoganda program
that's why.
But you would know that because you know real politics. ;wink:
Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies. ~ Marx
Do you really think it is weakness that yields to temptation? I tell you that there are terrible temptations which it requires strength, strength and courage to yield to. ~ Oscar Wilde
Love Me I'm A Liberal
The Communist Menace
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Do you really think it is weakness that yields to temptation? I tell you that there are terrible temptations which it requires strength, strength and courage to yield to. ~ Oscar Wilde
Love Me I'm A Liberal
The Communist Menace
Running The World
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Re: 23 Things They Don’t Tell You About Capitalism
Tell us how it is fundamentally flawed and prove it.Just as I said, all socialism, and indeed all collectivism ends up failing at State Socialism because the fundamental theory is fatally flawed
Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies. ~ Marx
Do you really think it is weakness that yields to temptation? I tell you that there are terrible temptations which it requires strength, strength and courage to yield to. ~ Oscar Wilde
Love Me I'm A Liberal
The Communist Menace
Running The World
Do you really think it is weakness that yields to temptation? I tell you that there are terrible temptations which it requires strength, strength and courage to yield to. ~ Oscar Wilde
Love Me I'm A Liberal
The Communist Menace
Running The World
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Re: 23 Things They Don’t Tell You About Capitalism
What? You don't know? It's because "human nature" makes all people greedy bastards and "human nature" never changes. People are greedy and violent, capitalism rewards greed and violence, therefore best system...EVER!.Morticia. wrote:Tell us how it is fundamentally flawed and prove it.Just as I said, all socialism, and indeed all collectivism ends up failing at State Socialism because the fundamental theory is fatally flawed
Our struggle is not against actual corrupt individuals, but against those in power in general, against their authority, against the global order and the ideological mystification which sustains it.
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Re: 23 Things They Don’t Tell You About Capitalism
sandinista wrote:What? You don't know? It's because "human nature" makes all people greedy bastards and "human nature" never changes. People are greedy and violent, capitalism rewards greed and violence, therefore best system...EVER!.Morticia. wrote:Tell us how it is fundamentally flawed and prove it.Just as I said, all socialism, and indeed all collectivism ends up failing at State Socialism because the fundamental theory is fatally flawed
I forgotted.

It's a wonder I survived living on Wall Street and having bankers for neighbours, being the naive socialist rube I am.

Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies. ~ Marx
Do you really think it is weakness that yields to temptation? I tell you that there are terrible temptations which it requires strength, strength and courage to yield to. ~ Oscar Wilde
Love Me I'm A Liberal
The Communist Menace
Running The World
Do you really think it is weakness that yields to temptation? I tell you that there are terrible temptations which it requires strength, strength and courage to yield to. ~ Oscar Wilde
Love Me I'm A Liberal
The Communist Menace
Running The World
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Re: 23 Things They Don’t Tell You About Capitalism
O.k., if you will provide some reason why communism is desirable, and prove it. You haven't. All you've done is claim that those who oppose it either (a) don't oppose the correct communism (but you won't for some reason tell us what the good communism is all about - maybe because you really don't know), or (b) we're all "scared" of communism because we errantly believe that communism limits property rights and involves private individuals not having control of the means of production..Morticia. wrote:Tell us how it is fundamentally flawed and prove it.Just as I said, all socialism, and indeed all collectivism ends up failing at State Socialism because the fundamental theory is fatally flawed
But - what do I think is a fundamental flaw of communism? O.k. here goes.
One of the main pillars of communism is that it will result in a completely "stateless" society. This is fundamentally flawed and can never happen because there always has been, and always will be, crime which will require a law enforcement authority to prevent and/or punish and/or rehabilitate. No matter what you call it, that entity is a "state." Laws must exist that, if broken, result in criminal penalties - crimes of passion, rape, theft, all sorts of things, will still exist, as far as I can tell. I haven't spoken to a single communist ever who has claimed that communism will result in the elimination of crime. Unless we're just going to have to live with crime (and no communist has ever said that we would), then there must be a State. If you disagree, I'd appreciate it if you would explain to me on what basis you disagree - do you think there will be no crime to worry about, or do you think that there will be something other than a State to handle it? If the latter, what will that be?
There is a basic human nature issue with communism as well. In communism, people share equally in wealth regardless of what they do or how hard they work (you can correct me if that's not true in your communism, and we can discuss your communism - but, this is true of all the versions of communism I've ever heard of). What I mean here is that under communism, the individual the same amount (what you need and only what you "need"), and it doesn't matter if he or she works hard, produces more, or does a better job - or, works lazily, produces less or does a worse job. Therefore, that operates collectively as a disincentive to hard work, more production or a better jobs done. That's because if each individual can get the same by working less, then it doesn't improve by virtue of making that same disincentive to hundreds, thousands or even millions of people. Another way to look at it is if a person gets the same pay for doing a job X and is offered job Y (which is harder and more stressful with more responsibility) why would he or she take job Y if it's for the same pay? We don't see people doing that now, generally speaking, so why would that change under communism?
Contrary to saninista's nasty rhetoric, which always has to turn to MSNBC style snark, I don't think humans are naturally greedy or mean or evil. I have a very high opinion of human nature in general. Most humans are very nice, kind, considerate, peace-loving, caring, giving, charitable and honest folks. There are, of course, those that are not. That's just reality.
So - now that I have in good faith answered your question, will you do me the courtesy of responding in kind?
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Re: 23 Things They Don’t Tell You About Capitalism
Coito ergo sum wrote:Morticia - I gather from your posts that you are suggesting that there are more than one kind of communism and that some of them are just fine. That's cool - but, what are the good kinds of communism like? Is there a source you would recommend that we can read that would describe the system you're familiar with that does not entail the loss of property rights?
Also, I reject the notion of "scaring" or "scaremongering." It's a question of one's understanding of communism resulting in a distaste for it. For me, what I've read on the subject - which is not a meager amount - leaves me with two primary feelings on the subject: (1) communism is based on fundamentally flawed principles and could not achieve its stated goals, and (2) it's stated goals are undesirable. Those two feelings, for me, apply to every sort of communism I've read about, or which has been described to me by anyone supporting the idea.
I haven't been scared into my views - I am not afraid of communism. I tell you truthfully that the more I learned about communism, the less appealing it became, and the less viable I have concluded it is.
So - let's assume I'm not scared of it. Let's assume I am approaching this subject rationally. You seem to have subscribed to a sort of communism - since I and others seem to be describing your sort of communism incorrectly - can you help us understand the sort of communism you like, and you think is good? Is there a writer or a publication that we can look to for more detail, if it's too much for you to describe on a forum like this?
A communist will never give a plan for what they believe is the best socio economic system, only that there is a progression.
I personally am not into the economic aspects of it so much as the personal aspects.
I'm a Situationalist of sorts. That is I would like people to be free of the influence of oppressive capitalism so that they can "actualise".
I'm not going to subscribe to a plan and tell peophe what to do and how to do it, people are perfectly capable of running their own lives.
Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies. ~ Marx
Do you really think it is weakness that yields to temptation? I tell you that there are terrible temptations which it requires strength, strength and courage to yield to. ~ Oscar Wilde
Love Me I'm A Liberal
The Communist Menace
Running The World
Do you really think it is weakness that yields to temptation? I tell you that there are terrible temptations which it requires strength, strength and courage to yield to. ~ Oscar Wilde
Love Me I'm A Liberal
The Communist Menace
Running The World
Re: 23 Things They Don’t Tell You About Capitalism
Yes, that's true. And that's what happens every time socialism rears its ugly head. There's a reason for this, which is that the "dictatorship of the proletariat" is so much rectal effluent as a useful social model. It's actually a "power vacuum" into which those who wish to exercise power over others flow. Community decision making, or "communism," only works in the very smallest of scales, where everyone knows everyone else and either trusts them or is at least willing to submit to the will of the group. But the instant that membership in such a commune becomes obligatory, and people are not free to leave, or the community grows so large that the interests of individuals overwhelm the common interests, such communism fails, and if it's an authoritarian system, as all Marxist socialism is, where people are compelled to obedience, there will and always does emerge a leading power elite that claims special knowledge or qualification to rule the proletariat for their own good. This leadership will eventually brutally repress "reactionaries" and "counterrevolutionaries" because unless the propaganda facade of socialist solidarity is maintained, the proletariat will begin to wonder if the reactionaries don't actually have a point, and that they might be better off enjoying the fruits of their own labor rather than giving it to the collective in return for only what the collective (or factually some bureaucrat off of Red Square) thinks is their legitimate "need." Once the proletariat begins to question the efficacy of communism, it soon collapses, and as we have seen in the former Soviet Union, capitalism instantly reemerges as the only viable and rational socioeconomic model that actually works for actual people..Morticia. wrote:because stalin was a lying dictatorial genocidal bastard who was trying to legitimise his policies under the acceptable language of marx and lenin and the spirit of socialism
Strange that the US had the power to speak through Stalin's mouth, and through the mouths of the rest of the Politbureau and Central Committee, who insisted that they were Communists. I had no idea that our intelligence apparatus was that deeply entrenched in the Kremlin or that Stalin was a US puppet. What a remarkable revelation. Presumably you have some credible documentary evidence of this astonishing historical bombshell? I can hardly wait to see it...And it suited the American power elite to label him a marxist/communist too to further their anti- socialist propoganda program that's why.

The history of the Soviet Union, from its origins in the 1917 February Revolution right through to it's demise, is an absolutely classic example of why collectivism always fails. Stalin didn't seize power, he was elected as the first General Secretary of the Communist Party in 1922 after Lenin's death. After that election he consolidated his power and became the unquestioned leader of the USSR. To say that he was not a "proper" Communist is simply revisionism and evasion of the natural course of events of socialism.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S
"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth
© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.
"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth
© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.
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Re: 23 Things They Don’t Tell You About Capitalism
Sure they will. Marx did, for example. Can we go by what Marx wrote?.Morticia. wrote:Coito ergo sum wrote:Morticia - I gather from your posts that you are suggesting that there are more than one kind of communism and that some of them are just fine. That's cool - but, what are the good kinds of communism like? Is there a source you would recommend that we can read that would describe the system you're familiar with that does not entail the loss of property rights?
Also, I reject the notion of "scaring" or "scaremongering." It's a question of one's understanding of communism resulting in a distaste for it. For me, what I've read on the subject - which is not a meager amount - leaves me with two primary feelings on the subject: (1) communism is based on fundamentally flawed principles and could not achieve its stated goals, and (2) it's stated goals are undesirable. Those two feelings, for me, apply to every sort of communism I've read about, or which has been described to me by anyone supporting the idea.
I haven't been scared into my views - I am not afraid of communism. I tell you truthfully that the more I learned about communism, the less appealing it became, and the less viable I have concluded it is.
So - let's assume I'm not scared of it. Let's assume I am approaching this subject rationally. You seem to have subscribed to a sort of communism - since I and others seem to be describing your sort of communism incorrectly - can you help us understand the sort of communism you like, and you think is good? Is there a writer or a publication that we can look to for more detail, if it's too much for you to describe on a forum like this?
A communist will never give a plan for what they believe is the best socio economic system, only that there is a progression.
A progression toward what? Things progress - we agree on that. But, what is it that you want things to progress to?
Communism is an economic system..Morticia. wrote:
I personally am not into the economic aspects of it so much as the personal aspects.
And, you see communism achieving this, how? How does communism, which says you can't gain financially from your efforts (a doctor makes the same as a used car salesman or a juggler or a magician or janitor), help you "actualize?".Morticia. wrote:
I'm a Situationalist of sorts. That is I would like people to be free of the influence of oppressive capitalism so that they can "actualise".
And, that has what, exactly, to do with communism? Communism requires people to give to the community according to their "ability," right? How will people run their own lives under that principle? Or, are you saying that the most basic principle of communism - from each according to his ability, to each according to his need - is not part of your communism?.Morticia. wrote:
I'm not going to subscribe to a plan and tell peophe what to do and how to do it, people are perfectly capable of running their own lives.
It sounds more like you're more of a proponent of liberal western democracy, with protections for human rights and individual liberty, such that people can work to live a fulfilling life according to their own desires and wants. That's what it sort of sounds like, but you can correct me if I'm wrong.
Lastly, you haven't stated what you think the real or the good communism is. You've said we're scared of it, taken in by scaremongers. You've said I and others are wrong about it. But, the most you've said about it is that you want people to actualize and think they should run their own lives. Well, you and I agree on that. What I'm curious about is what you think communism offers that achieves that goal.

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