The Muslim Brotherhood, all that bad?

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Re: The Muslim Brotherhood, all that bad?

Post by sandinista » Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:48 pm

U.S. Chickens Come Home to Roost in Egypt
Barack Obama, like his predecessors, has supported Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak to the tune of $1.3 billion annually, mostly in military aid. In return, Egypt minds U.S. interests in the Middle East, notably providing a buffer between Israel and the rest of the Arab world. Egypt collaborates with Israel to isolate Gaza with a punishing blockade, to the consternation of Arabs throughout the Middle East. The United States could not have fought its wars in Iraq without Egypt’s logistical support.

Now with a revolution against Mubarak by two million Egyptians, all bets are off about who will replace him and whether the successor government will be friendly to the United States.

Mubarak’s “whole system is corrupt,” said Hesham Korayem, an Egyptian who taught at City University of New York and provides frequent commentary on Egyptian and Saudi television. He told me there is virtually no middle class in Egypt, only the extremely rich (about 20 to 25 percent of the population) and the extremely poor (75 percent). The parliament has no input into what Mubarak does with the money the United States gives him, $300 million of which comes to the dictator in cash each year.

Torture is commonplace in Egypt, according to Korayem. Indeed, Omar Suleiman, Egypt’s intelligence chief whom Mubarak just named Vice-President, was the lynchpin for Egyptian torture when the CIA sent prisoners to Egypt in its extraordinary rendition program. Stephen Grey noted in Ghost Plane, “n secret, men like Omar Suleiman, the country’s most powerful spy and secret politician, did our work, the sort of work that Western countries have no appetite to do ourselves.”

In her chapter in the newly published book, “The United States and Torture: Interrogation, Incarceration, and Abuse,” Jane Mayer cites Egypt as the most common destination for suspects rendered by the United States. “The largest recipient of U.S. foreign aid after Israel,” Mayer writes, “Egypt was a key strategic ally, and its secret police force, the Mukhabarat, had a reputation for brutality.” She describes the rendering of Ibn al-Sheikh al-Libi to Egypt, where he was tortured and made a false confession that Colin Powell cited as he importuned the Security Council to approve the U.S. invasion of Iraq. Al-Libi later recanted his confession.


http://www.zcommunications.org/u-s-chic ... jorie-cohn
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Re: The Muslim Brotherhood, all that bad?

Post by Ian » Thu Feb 03, 2011 8:17 pm

sandinista wrote:U.S. Chickens Come Home to Roost in Egypt
Barack Obama, like his predecessors, has supported Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak to the tune of $1.3 billion annually, mostly in military aid.
Do you EVER read news coming from sources which at least try to be impartial, or is all the stuff you read coming from ostensibly biased sources that make you feel better about what you already believe? Can't you do your own analysis?

Have you never heard of the Camp David Accords? Maybe you have, but I assume you couldn't care less about it since you post drivel like this article. I wonder if the author ever heard of it. It's a treaty, dude. Signed before Mubarak came to power, and long before Obama did. And for $1.3b per year, it has kept the peace pretty well for thirty-three years (meanwhile, Egypt's military budget has decreased rather steadily). Not a bad bargain on the part of the US, considering the last time there was a full-scale war over there the US wound up going to DEFCON 3 for a short while.

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Re: The Muslim Brotherhood, all that bad?

Post by sandinista » Thu Feb 03, 2011 8:23 pm

Ian wrote:
sandinista wrote:U.S. Chickens Come Home to Roost in Egypt
Barack Obama, like his predecessors, has supported Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak to the tune of $1.3 billion annually, mostly in military aid.
Do you EVER read news coming from sources which at least try to be impartial
such as.
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Re: The Muslim Brotherhood, all that bad?

Post by Svartalf » Thu Feb 03, 2011 8:26 pm

Ian wrote:
sandinista wrote:U.S. Chickens Come Home to Roost in Egypt
Barack Obama, like his predecessors, has supported Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak to the tune of $1.3 billion annually, mostly in military aid.
Do you EVER read news coming from sources which at least try to be impartial, or is all the stuff you read coming from ostensibly biased sources that make you feel better about what you already believe? Can't you do your own analysis?

Have you never heard of the Camp David Accords? Maybe you have, but I assume you couldn't care less about it since you post drivel like this article. I wonder if the author ever heard of it. It's a treaty, dude. Signed before Mubarak came to power, and long before Obama did. And for $1.3b per year, it has kept the peace pretty well for thirty-three years (meanwhile, Egypt's military budget has decreased rather steadily). Not a bad bargain on the part of the US, considering the last time there was a full-scale war over there the US wound up going to DEFCON 3 for a short while.
Careful there... one could interpret the aid in the years leading to Camp David and since as a straight bribe for Egypt to stay civil to Israel
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Re: The Muslim Brotherhood, all that bad?

Post by Warren Dew » Fri Feb 04, 2011 5:06 am

Svartalf wrote::this: a modern democracy implies a modicum of respect for the freedom of minorities.
Given that Iran got their form of democracy more recently than the U.S. or the U.K. did, Iran's form has a better claim to being "modern". Of course, "modern" doesn't necessarily mean "better".
A state under Sharia law will not wait to ask for a thief's or adulteress' faith before subjecting them to the ordained penalties. ergo, tyranny of the majority.
Tyranny of the majority is what democracy is all about. Individual rights are protected by constitutions and independent judiciaries, not by democracy.
Svartalf wrote:Careful there... one could interpret the aid in the years leading to Camp David and since as a straight bribe for Egypt to stay civil to Israel
Is there another interpretation?

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Re: The Muslim Brotherhood, all that bad?

Post by JimC » Sun Feb 06, 2011 10:32 am

Warren Dew wrote:
Svartalf wrote::this: a modern democracy implies a modicum of respect for the freedom of minorities.
Given that Iran got their form of democracy more recently than the U.S. or the U.K. did, Iran's form has a better claim to being "modern". Of course, "modern" doesn't necessarily mean "better".
A state under Sharia law will not wait to ask for a thief's or adulteress' faith before subjecting them to the ordained penalties. ergo, tyranny of the majority.
Tyranny of the majority is what democracy is all about. Individual rights are protected by constitutions and independent judiciaries, not by democracy.
Svartalf wrote:Careful there... one could interpret the aid in the years leading to Camp David and since as a straight bribe for Egypt to stay civil to Israel
Is there another interpretation?
That would include independent from the particular delusions of any one religion, one would hope... Sharia would certainly not qualify...

As far as the OP, it has been a long time for the Muslim Brotherhood...

Let me get a liitle biblical.

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Re: The Muslim Brotherhood, all that bad?

Post by Brian Peacock » Sun Feb 06, 2011 12:45 pm

Warren Dew wrote:
Brian Peacock wrote:It depends if they are secularists or not I guess. They seem to take part in representative democracies in Turkey for example without calling for Sharia and all the other scary stuff...
My understanding is that they do call for Sharia.

A democracy using Sharia law is not impossible. Iran is basically one.
They don't call for Sharia in Turkey. They have formed alliances with whomever is opposing the government and are perpetual oppositionists in this respect. As fundamentalist Islamisists did in Iran against the regime under the Shar in 1979, TMB align themselves with radical political opposition and pepper the calls for political change with (as they see it) the legitimising authority of Allah.

They obviously are not a secular organisation, nor do the aspire to be secular. Secularism stands squarely against Islamists who demand special and particular treatment for their beliefs and practices on the grounds that the word of the Prophet was absolute and final, and the world will, should and must become a Muslim paradise at any cost.

The question of democracy is somewhat separate tto the point I was trying to draw out, but when it comes to the current situation in £gypt, for example, where there are vociferous calls for an end of the Police State, it favours the Islamisists to agitate for a swift and (if possible total) collapse of the State before the kinds of institutions and procedures can be created which might facilitate democracy and allow it to flourish. If such a fledgling democracy is not going to unduly advantage or disadvantage anybody it has to be secular, yet once at the table negotiating transition Islamisists will resist secularision of any and all government institutions as a matter of principle - once again casting themselves in the role of perpetual oppositionists. For the process to move on they will have to be accommodated, and this will probably be done by granting the Islamic clerisy a legal right within the new systems to oversee and administer to the Muslim community according to the principles of Sharia, which means granting them certain privileges and exemption in relation to the civil law...

...well this is one possible outcome in Egypt - its hard to tell what's going to happen by next week let alone by September when the mock elections were due to be held.
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Re: The Muslim Brotherhood, all that bad?

Post by PsychoSerenity » Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:41 pm

Youtube just informed me you can watch the Egypt revolution live via aljazeera.

http://www.youtube.com/aljazeeraenglish?feature=ticker

Is the military now in charge? Will the people get the power? Watch news reporters speculating, and a big group of people standing around, and find out first here. :dance:
[Disclaimer - if this is comes across like I think I know what I'm talking about, I want to make it clear that I don't. I'm just trying to get my thoughts down]

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Re: The Muslim Brotherhood, all that bad?

Post by PsychoSerenity » Thu Feb 10, 2011 8:36 pm

So I've been waiting half an hour for the damn president to make his speech. :lay:

News reporters padding live is getting boring. Can't they time the revolution so I can see it live at a time that suits me?
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Re: The Muslim Brotherhood, all that bad?

Post by Santa_Claus » Thu Feb 10, 2011 8:40 pm

I can't say too much at the moment.

But my last job interview went well :td:
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Re: The Muslim Brotherhood, all that bad?

Post by Warren Dew » Thu Feb 10, 2011 11:27 pm

"Banned Muslim Brotherhood ready to impose Sharia law in Egypt:"

http://europenews.dk/en/node/39877
And in an exclusive interview with the Daily Mirror, the Muslim Brotherhood’s deputy said Sharia – which allows oppression of women and stoning of adulterers – could be introduced "if it is the will of the people”.

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