A secular debate about adultery

[Millefleur]

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[DRSB]

Property itself is not such an old concept either, having come about only with the advent of agriculture, which was, when was it, a mere 10'000 years ago? What do those 10'000 years mean in evolutionary terms?

Real property is an agricultural concept, perhaps. Personal property likely goes back to the paleolithic - certainly my kids got the concept of "mine" without any help from us.

I don't think of monogamous relationships as involving property rights in one's partner - it's more of a contractual relationship - but gorillas seem to, so it may be in our genes somewhere.

Gorillas perhaps, but what about Chimps and Bonobos?

Interestingly, when talking about communication and use of tools, evolutionists like to look at Chimps and Bonobos for clues, but when it is about our sexual behaviour, we get compared to the Gorillas, or the monogamous Gibbon. Ask Christopher Ryan ("Sex at Dawn").

Also, define please "real property" versus "personal property"!

[Mac_Guffin]

Anything consensual is okay in my book. If a couple's happy with having sex with others, why should I stop them.
The only time I think it's wrong is when a couple promises each other to stay faithful and trust is broken. Is it forgivable? It depends on the person. I think it is as long as it doesn't turn into a pattern.

[Warren Dew]

Interestingly, when talking about communication and use of tools, evolutionists like to look at Chimps and Bonobos for clues, but when it is about our sexual behaviour, we get compared to the Gorillas, or the monogamous Gibbon. Ask Christopher Ryan ("Sex at Dawn").

Also, define please "real property" versus "personal property"!

I've actually seen a lot of comparison to chimps about sexual behavior too - and not much to gorillas, since we aren't generally a harem keeping species. That's why I said "somewhere in". Gibbons are probably closest to us in terms of general habits, and I don't think their pair bonding reflects "ownership".

Real property is land and permanent buildings - real estate. Personal property is stuff that's portable. At least, that's how those terms are defined in the U.S.

[DRSB]

Gibbons may be closest to how we've behaved after the advent of agriculture, but chimps and bonobos present more clues as to to how we evolved in the millions of years before that, closer in genetic code as well, how much is it, 96 or 98% identical? We parted DNA-ways only 5 mln years ago, in evolutionary terms, "the day before yesterday", to quote Christopher Ryan.

[JimC]

Whatever comfortable arrangement I and my wife have in our current relationship is one thing; the key is that it gives me no rights to judge how others negotiate their own relationships. The negotiations happen in a bewildering forest of cultural mores, personal experience, and a certain degree of innate biological pressure, but the essence of liberal freedom is that adult, non-coercive relationships are not to be controlled or sanctioned by any social institutions whatsoever.

[DRSB]

Whatever comfortable arrangement I and my wife have in our current relationship is one thing; the key is that it gives me no rights to judge how others negotiate their own relationships. The negotiations happen in a bewildering forest of cultural mores, personal experience, and a certain degree of innate biological pressure, but the essence of liberal freedom is that adult, non-coercive relationships are not to be controlled or sanctioned by any social institutions whatsoever.

[Warren Dew]

Gibbons may be closest to how we've behaved after the advent of agriculture, but chimps and bonobos present more clues as to to how we evolved in the millions of years before that, closer in genetic code as well, how much is it, 96 or 98% identical? We parted DNA-ways only 5 mln years ago, in evolutionary terms, "the day before yesterday", to quote Christopher Ryan.

We're very nearly as closely related to gorillas as to chimpanzees, and we're much more closely related to our most recent common ancestor with gorillas than we are to modern day chimpanzees. Since chimps and gorillas differ from modern humans in opposite directions with respect to apparent adaptation to sperm competition, the simplest assumption is that our most recent common ancestors were somewhere in between - which brings us back to where modern humans are today.

[charlou]

The BSB derail split to a new thread: http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=23502

[DRSB]

Friends with benefits, LOL: http://youtu.be/fR-AAcHlEJg

[.Morticia.]

Gibbons may be closest to how we've behaved after the advent of agriculture, but chimps and bonobos present more clues as to to how we evolved in the millions of years before that, closer in genetic code as well, how much is it, 96 or 98% identical? We parted DNA-ways only 5 mln years ago, in evolutionary terms, "the day before yesterday", to quote Christopher Ryan.

We're very nearly as closely related to gorillas as to chimpanzees, and we're much more closely related to our most recent common ancestor with gorillas than we are to modern day chimpanzees. Since chimps and gorillas differ from modern humans in opposite directions with respect to apparent adaptation to sperm competition, the simplest assumption is that our most recent common ancestors were somewhere in between - which brings us back to where modern humans are today.

which is a rather nice place

promiscuous but not too much

sex that lasts longer than 5 seconds

and not too much violence