Is there a single civilised Muslim majority country?

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Re: Is there a single civilised Muslim majority country?

Post by Santa_Claus » Thu Sep 30, 2010 5:50 pm

Charlou wrote:By 'muslim majority' country I assumed the OP meant countries where the majority of people consider themselves muslims?
Yeah, that's what I meant.

Seems to me that plenty of Muslims are prepared to play the moderate / secular card when in a minority (as then they don't get oppressed) but whenever actually a majority they are in fact happier with going Islamic and all that it brings. Even the nice Muslims :ask: just very different ideas on what is "civilised" :fp:

To be honest I don't have a problem with folks stoning their wives or living in the 14th century, with all that goes with it. Indeed I think it is a good thing (for me) as no society from the 14th Century has (yet!) designed, built and sustained the industrial and technoligical base to create things like an F15.

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or anything else 20th century+ sophisticated.

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So they might blow a few things / people up now and again but whilst stuck with Islam the Muslims ain't ever gonna be a real threat economically and therefore not militarily.

Unless we let them become a majority in our own lands.

I am 14th Centuryphobic :toot:
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Re: Is there a single civilised Muslim majority country?

Post by Trolldor » Fri Oct 01, 2010 6:15 am

I'm glad you're fine with it. In the mean time young girls are tortured, raped and sold off to men four times their age. Inbreeding goes rampant and the rights and liberties of anyone who would wish to live different is quashed under an impressive display of blind fervour.
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Re: Is there a single civilised Muslim majority country?

Post by Rum » Fri Oct 01, 2010 6:42 am

Indonesia. Its very big, often overlooked and although it has its share of loonies, it is also pretty tolerant one reads.

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Re: Is there a single civilised Muslim majority country?

Post by Robert_S » Fri Oct 01, 2010 7:20 am

Rum wrote:Indonesia. Its very big, often overlooked and although it has its share of loonies, it is also pretty tolerant one reads.
That's what I often hear, but according to an Indonesian Christian I once worked with, it's not all that great.
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Re: Is there a single civilised Muslim majority country?

Post by Svartalf » Fri Oct 01, 2010 7:40 am

Indonesian islam is very cool unless you're a non muslim living in Indonesia... just aske any buddhis (or is it Hinduist?) Balinese...

Anybody knows if the calls for prayer are PA announced from the mosques over all town?

Me, I nixed any possibility of staying more than a month in a row in Turkey after getting my sleep ruined that way.
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Re: Is there a single civilised Muslim majority country?

Post by Coito ergo sum » Thu Jan 27, 2011 9:19 pm

Stoned to death with her lover: Horrific video of execution of girl, 19, killed by Afghan Taliban for running away from arranged marriage

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z1CGvWnDwk

I'm not sure there is a way to solve this problem without killing. How do you stop people who are willing to bury a girl in the dirt and throw rocks at her until she is bludgeoned to death. I mean....this is madness.....utter.....madness.....

Say what you want about liberal capitalist democracy, but it's far better than the crap systems most people live under in the world today....

Image

Image

Image

Image

Stoned to death for declining an arranged marriage and seeking true love. This story made me nearly cry. Awful. Horrid. That such animals could live in this world. Strike that - I don't mean to insult non-human animals. These are piles of porcine fecal matter.

Islam, the religion of pieces of shit.

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Re: Is there a single civilised Muslim majority country?

Post by Jesus_of_Nazareth » Thu Jan 27, 2011 10:01 pm

Wales.
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Re: Is there a single civilised Muslim majority country?

Post by Lozzer » Fri Jan 28, 2011 9:55 am

This thread is silly: you're trying to discern what's 'civilized' with a western perspective, and anything you'd consider 'civilized' would have to be a democratic, liberal and consumerist society. There's a greater subjectivity. Many Easterners would consider it a hard-push to find what they view as a 'civilized' western country, but only because none adhere to their narrow Islamic philosophy and pious culture.
nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnneeee

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Re: Is there a single civilised Muslim majority country?

Post by Coito ergo sum » Fri Jan 28, 2011 1:13 pm

Devogay wrote:This thread is silly: you're trying to discern what's 'civilized' with a western perspective, and anything you'd consider 'civilized' would have to be a democratic, liberal and consumerist society. There's a greater subjectivity. Many Easterners would consider it a hard-push to find what they view as a 'civilized' western country, but only because none adhere to their narrow Islamic philosophy and pious culture.
Not really. We could start with just not bashing women over the head with rocks for refusing to assent to arranged marriages.

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Re: Is there a single civilised Muslim majority country?

Post by Pappa » Fri Jan 28, 2011 1:37 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:Stoned to death with her lover: Horrific video of execution of girl, 19, killed by Afghan Taliban for running away from arranged marriage

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z1CGvWnDwk

I'm not sure there is a way to solve this problem without killing. How do you stop people who are willing to bury a girl in the dirt and throw rocks at her until she is bludgeoned to death. I mean....this is madness.....utter.....madness.....

Say what you want about liberal capitalist democracy, but it's far better than the crap systems most people live under in the world today....

Image

Image

Image

Image

Stoned to death for declining an arranged marriage and seeking true love. This story made me nearly cry. Awful. Horrid. That such animals could live in this world. Strike that - I don't mean to insult non-human animals. These are piles of porcine fecal matter.

Islam, the religion of pieces of shit.
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Re: Is there a single civilised Muslim majority country?

Post by Clinton Huxley » Fri Jan 28, 2011 1:49 pm

125,000 year old stone tools found in Arabia...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2011/ ... ion-africa

An unkind person might suggest that Arabia didn't get very much further, technologically, in the subsequent 125,000 years...
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Re: Is there a single civilised Muslim majority country?

Post by JOZeldenrust » Fri Jan 28, 2011 2:00 pm

Clinton Huxley wrote:125,000 year old stone tools found in Arabia...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2011/ ... ion-africa

An unkind person might suggest that Arabia didn't get very much further, technologically, in the subsequent 125,000 years...
They got quite a lot further, right up to the fourteenth century, but then they regressed.

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Re: Is there a single civilised Muslim majority country?

Post by Clinton Huxley » Fri Jan 28, 2011 2:02 pm

JOZeldenrust wrote:
Clinton Huxley wrote:125,000 year old stone tools found in Arabia...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2011/ ... ion-africa

An unkind person might suggest that Arabia didn't get very much further, technologically, in the subsequent 125,000 years...
They got quite a lot further, right up to the fourteenth century, but then they regressed.
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Re: Is there a single civilised Muslim majority country?

Post by Coito ergo sum » Fri Jan 28, 2011 2:34 pm

Muslim rise ended in 1258 when the Mongols sacked Baghdad. The main criticism to be found in that was the failure of the Mongols to wipe the slate completely clean. For that, the world still pays a heavy price.

But, generally, this idea of Islam as some sort of scientific wellspring in the past that somehow has lost its way is really just a tool to try to bolster the image of Islam around the world. It's like the re-writing of history to paint Europeans as "the bad guys" and the Muslims as somehow inherently seized of the Byzantine lands. It's a whitewashing of Islamic history.

When we listen to the the pro-Islamic forces, we get basically a "we really invented everything" mantra. Take algebra - we're supposed to credit he Muslims with algebra, when in fact it was invented in India long before there ever was a Muslim. We're told they invented the glass mirror - which of course is a Roman invention.

Yes, the Muslims did save a lot of Greek works, and this is generally portrayed in a way to make it seem that the European West was out to destroy those works. Frankly, those works survived quite well in the West under non-Muslim rule - example, the Byzantine Empire. They were a light and bastion of learning, not dark age destroyers of learning. Nobody points out that the Islamic world ruled Greece for 500 years, after the Byzantines fell. Much learning was destroyed in the burnings committed by Muslim forces when they sacked Byzantine City after City, and sure - once they conquered most of the Greek world, they translated the surviving books into Arabic. Great.

The idea that the works would all be gone but for the Muslim conquest and translation process is a bit of a stretch. Let's first acknowledge that the Muslims didn't even exist until the 7th century, and didn't get much out of Arabia until the 8th century. Their business for the next 500 year or so was conquest and expansion, and they weren't all that concerned with saving knowledge from the mits of the evil West. It was actually the Byzantines in the East who saved the ancient learning of the Greeks in the original language, and the first Latin texts to be used were translation from the Greek, in the 12th century. However valuable Arabic commentators might have been, the works of Aristotle, for example, were surviving just fine without them.

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Re: Is there a single civilised Muslim majority country?

Post by JOZeldenrust » Fri Jan 28, 2011 3:05 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:Muslim rise ended in 1258 when the Mongols sacked Baghdad. The main criticism to be found in that was the failure of the Mongols to wipe the slate completely clean. For that, the world still pays a heavy price.

But, generally, this idea of Islam as some sort of scientific wellspring in the past that somehow has lost its way is really just a tool to try to bolster the image of Islam around the world. It's like the re-writing of history to paint Europeans as "the bad guys" and the Muslims as somehow inherently seized of the Byzantine lands. It's a whitewashing of Islamic history.

When we listen to the the pro-Islamic forces, we get basically a "we really invented everything" mantra. Take algebra - we're supposed to credit he Muslims with algebra, when in fact it was invented in India long before there ever was a Muslim. We're told they invented the glass mirror - which of course is a Roman invention.

Yes, the Muslims did save a lot of Greek works, and this is generally portrayed in a way to make it seem that the European West was out to destroy those works. Frankly, those works survived quite well in the West under non-Muslim rule - example, the Byzantine Empire. They were a light and bastion of learning, not dark age destroyers of learning. Nobody points out that the Islamic world ruled Greece for 500 years, after the Byzantines fell. Much learning was destroyed in the burnings committed by Muslim forces when they sacked Byzantine City after City, and sure - once they conquered most of the Greek world, they translated the surviving books into Arabic. Great.

The idea that the works would all be gone but for the Muslim conquest and translation process is a bit of a stretch. Let's first acknowledge that the Muslims didn't even exist until the 7th century, and didn't get much out of Arabia until the 8th century. Their business for the next 500 year or so was conquest and expansion, and they weren't all that concerned with saving knowledge from the mits of the evil West. It was actually the Byzantines in the East who saved the ancient learning of the Greeks in the original language, and the first Latin texts to be used were translation from the Greek, in the 12th century. However valuable Arabic commentators might have been, the works of Aristotle, for example, were surviving just fine without them.
The works of Aristotle were only reintroduced in Christian Europe through Arabic translations in the twelfth century. Specifically Aristotle wouldn't have survived without the Muslims, and we'd still be stuck with neoplatonist philosophy as the dominant philosophical school.

The Arabs weren't more developed then Christian Europe because they were somehow better, but they were more developed. European thinking had ground into immovable paths, and the Arabs were still looking at the world with fresh eyes.

Also, the downfall of the Muslim civilization isn't just because of the Mongols. The fall of Al Andalus was an important contributing factor.

The Arab world from the eighth to the fourteenth century wasn't some kind of Eutopia, but compared to the rest of the world it was very much civilized, and it had a profound influence on the development toward civilization of Christian Europe. FFS, we owe our concept of courtesy to the Arabs.

ETA: Europe wasn't out to destroy anything, we just didn't have the infrastructure to preserve those works.

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