Netherlands to Close 8 Prisons -- Not Enough Crime

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Netherlands to Close 8 Prisons -- Not Enough Crime

Post by sandinista » Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:06 pm

Fuck the usa and it's war on drugs...more like a make work project for prisons, cops, and lawyers with the added bonus of keeping poor people locked in dungeons.

Drug-Friendly Netherlands to Close 8 Prisons -- Not Enough Crime
News by Marijuana Policy Project
(May 26, 2009) in Society / Drug Law

By Bruce Mirken

For years prohibitionists, including our own Drug Enforcement Administration, have claimed — falsely — that the tolerant marijuana policies of the Netherlands have made that nation a nest of crime and drug abuse. They may have trouble wrapping their little brains around this:

The Dutch government is getting ready to close eight prisons because they don’t have enough criminals to fill them. Officials attribute the shortage of prisoners to a declining crime rate.

Just for fun, let’s compare the Netherlands to California. With a population of 16.6 million, the Dutch prison population is about 12,000. With its population of 36.7 million, California should have a bit more than double the Dutch prison population. California’s actual prison population is 171,000.

So, whose drug policies are keeping the streets safer?
http://www.opposingviews.com/i/drug-fri ... ough-crime
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Re: Netherlands to Close 8 Prisons -- Not Enough Crime

Post by AnInconvenientScotsman » Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:34 pm

Just to point out, the fact that the Netherlands has a more relaxed attitude towards some drugs doesn't mean shit. Saying there are less prisoners because there are places where you can smoke weed or whatever is nonsense.
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Re: Netherlands to Close 8 Prisons -- Not Enough Crime

Post by sandinista » Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:36 pm

AnInconvenientScotsman wrote:Just to point out, the fact that the Netherlands has a more relaxed attitude towards some drugs doesn't mean shit. Saying there are less prisoners because there are places where you can smoke weed or whatever is nonsense.
and you're counter argument, if the above is nonsense, is...?? I mean, you are saying that if cops stopped locking up people for drug use the prison population would...go up?
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Re: Netherlands to Close 8 Prisons -- Not Enough Crime

Post by AnInconvenientScotsman » Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:48 pm

The claim was that because the Netherlands has a relaxed view on drug use, there is such a shortage of prisoners that 8 prisons closed? Where's the evidence? Apart from two facts - which the author hasn't provided any proof for being linked - there's nothing there. There are dozens of factors that determine how large a percentage of a populace are convicted criminals.

I'm not saying that it doesn't help, to have a more relaxed take on some drug use, but to say it's the single cause of a massive disparity in the prison populace of two states makes no sense.
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Re: Netherlands to Close 8 Prisons -- Not Enough Crime

Post by Robert_S » Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:56 pm

AnInconvenientScotsman wrote:Just to point out, the fact that the Netherlands has a more relaxed attitude towards some drugs doesn't mean shit. Saying there are less prisoners because there are places where you can smoke weed or whatever is nonsense.
Saying that there are less prisoners because weed won't get you incarcerated makes some sense. Saying that there are fewer criminals because drugs are viewed more as a public health issue than as law enforcement issue might make even more sense.
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Re: Netherlands to Close 8 Prisons -- Not Enough Crime

Post by AnInconvenientScotsman » Sat Jan 22, 2011 9:01 pm

Robert_S wrote:
AnInconvenientScotsman wrote:Just to point out, the fact that the Netherlands has a more relaxed attitude towards some drugs doesn't mean shit. Saying there are less prisoners because there are places where you can smoke weed or whatever is nonsense.
Saying that there are less prisoners because weed won't get you incarcerated makes some sense. Saying that there are fewer criminals because drugs are viewed more as a public health issue than as law enforcement issue might make even more sense.
That's not what the OP said though, the claim was that the Netherlands has far fewer prisoners per person than California because there's a relaxed view towards drugs. Yes, there are some people who live in the Netherlands who would be incarcerated in California but that was already clear. California, and the US's, problem goes far beyond drugs.
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Re: Netherlands to Close 8 Prisons -- Not Enough Crime

Post by sandinista » Sat Jan 22, 2011 9:31 pm

AnInconvenientScotsman wrote:
Robert_S wrote:
AnInconvenientScotsman wrote:Just to point out, the fact that the Netherlands has a more relaxed attitude towards some drugs doesn't mean shit. Saying there are less prisoners because there are places where you can smoke weed or whatever is nonsense.
Saying that there are less prisoners because weed won't get you incarcerated makes some sense. Saying that there are fewer criminals because drugs are viewed more as a public health issue than as law enforcement issue might make even more sense.
That's not what the OP said though, the claim was that the Netherlands has far fewer prisoners per person than California because there's a relaxed view towards drugs. Yes, there are some people who live in the Netherlands who would be incarcerated in California but that was already clear. California, and the US's, problem goes far beyond drugs.
I wouldn't say "far" beyond drugs. If drugs were legalized in the US the prison pop and "crime" would be drastically reduced, which is one reason drugs are still illegal.
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Re: Netherlands to Close 8 Prisons -- Not Enough Crime

Post by charlou » Sun Jan 23, 2011 1:32 pm

The Netherlands' attitude about drugs and prostitution are obvious contributors, but I think it's their social attitudes and policies in general that have reduced the need for incarceration.
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Re: Netherlands to Close 8 Prisons -- Not Enough Crime

Post by JOZeldenrust » Sun Jan 23, 2011 2:03 pm

We'll find out soon enough: the current administration is breaking down every part of the welfare state they can get their hands on. Cost of healthcare is expected to rise a little over 10% this year, social security is getting scaled back, financial support to students is going down the drain.

Current prime minister Rutte is a big fan of the US, and it shows.

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Re: Netherlands to Close 8 Prisons -- Not Enough Crime

Post by Feck » Sun Jan 23, 2011 2:07 pm

JOZeldenrust wrote:We'll find out soon enough: the current administration is breaking down every part of the welfare state they can get their hands on. Cost of healthcare is expected to rise a little over 10% this year, social security is getting scaled back, financial support to students is going down the drain.

Current prime minister Rutte is a big fan of the US, and it shows.
That sounds nasty Is it because of the current financial climate or a political policy ?

Here in the UK the government is claiming that it's the former but it looks like it's political .
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Re: Netherlands to Close 8 Prisons -- Not Enough Crime

Post by JOZeldenrust » Sun Jan 23, 2011 2:42 pm

Feck wrote:
JOZeldenrust wrote:We'll find out soon enough: the current administration is breaking down every part of the welfare state they can get their hands on. Cost of healthcare is expected to rise a little over 10% this year, social security is getting scaled back, financial support to students is going down the drain.

Current prime minister Rutte is a big fan of the US, and it shows.
That sounds nasty Is it because of the current financial climate or a political policy ?

Here in the UK the government is claiming that it's the former but it looks like it's political .
Both. Government does need to make cuts, but there are other possibilities: we could cut spending on the military, for instance by canceling our involvement in the JFS project, and we could end a lot of tax deduction options, most notably the possibility to deduct the interest on mortgages.

They're even cutting subsidies on art. This won't really save money, because it's only a tiny fraction of the national budget, but Wilders' PVV is exacting his revenge on the cultural elite.

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Re: Netherlands to Close 8 Prisons -- Not Enough Crime

Post by .Morticia. » Sun Jan 23, 2011 7:41 pm

The Netherlands has a prison system, the USA has a Prison Industrial Complex .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison-industrial_complex
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Re: Netherlands to Close 8 Prisons -- Not Enough Crime

Post by lsdetroit » Sun Jan 23, 2011 7:44 pm

this really strikes home for me, being a non-violent drug offender myself here in the states. i read somewhere that the united states has more people incarcerated for marijuana than europe has incarcerated for any offense. obviously something should be changed in the US given these numbers, alas, democracy is a broken machine.
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Re: Netherlands to Close 8 Prisons -- Not Enough Crime

Post by JimC » Sun Jan 23, 2011 8:17 pm

The report in the OP may have gone a little over the top, but it still generally makes sense. Apart from people simply locked up for smoking weed, a culture where drugs are illegal encourages serious, violent criminals to get into selling drugs to make big money, and the high prices encourage people to steal to buy drugs. Many major criminal cartels would be in big trouble if drugs were legalised in the States...
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Re: Netherlands to Close 8 Prisons -- Not Enough Crime

Post by Svartalf » Sun Jan 23, 2011 8:31 pm

AnInconvenientScotsman wrote:Just to point out, the fact that the Netherlands has a more relaxed attitude towards some drugs doesn't mean shit. Saying there are less prisoners because there are places where you can smoke weed or whatever is nonsense.
Actually, you're wrong.

If drugs are legal, the user won't be criminalized, and will avoid having to deal with the criminal element to get his fix, plus he doesn't risk being sent to jail and other places where you make contacts among career criminals, and get stigmatized when you get out so you may have to become a criminal yourself just to survive.

Also, all the criminal infrastructure going along with controlled substance trafficking doesn't exist in a place where the stuff is legal, meaning that there will be fewer career criminals around since they will have less of an oportunity to make a lucrative living.
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