Soldiers: heroes?
Soldiers: heroes?
It would seem that In Britain we have this renewed war-time spirit of elevating servicemen to the level of epic Greek protagonists, which isn't necessarily bad in itself, but it seems to be an indulgence where critique is simply not allowed. Individuals which happen to 'support our heroes' possess a moralist conceit as if their raging military advocacy actually has any bearing on the success of the Afghanistan/Iraq struggle.
If it just so happens that a solider has himself blown to smithereens by an improvised explosive device made with selotape and discarded Furbies, he's considered a 'martyr'. No one deviates from this view, and to me, it seems excessively wishy-washy.
I'm sure that many people don't join the army to be 'heroes', but to earn a reasonable amount of money and to secure a relatively good pension. They don't really anticipate or 'heroically' intend to be exploded by some fundamentalist bearded chap who farms goats.
It's all a bit too 'American' for me, and fantastically un-British. I don't particularly feel comfortable with it, and as the son of ex-military types, I doubt my parents ever pursued such careers for renown; why? because they had a job to do, and they accepted its responsibilities without any expected societal backing.
Soldiers can be heroes, any one can, but this forcing of title rarely seems to be applied by merit anymore. If modern soldiers slaughter and maim in the chase for eternal glory, I can't really respect them. Those in the armed forces agree to a contract, they train and then they're stationed; losing their lives happens to be a possibility, and when they do, I don't see how they're anymore than a hero than a building contractor who falls from a ladder.
This is, of course, dependent on context; but we're not fighting for liberty, we're not in the East to secure our existence. Soldiers are there because of British policy, and those who die are a consequence of it. This being the case, why do so many portray soldiers as heroes and not victims?
It honestly irritates me, and I'm not proud to say it. My father may very well be on his way to Afghanistan, and should he lose his life, then I'll have the understanding that it was because he's a silly bugger. He has two families, he's middle-aged and wants adventure. He'd be training the Afghan police force, a position he's willingly applied for. Should he perish in his efforts, I'd have to be embarrassed for both of us when the tabloids celebrate him as fighting deity.
Rant over.
If it just so happens that a solider has himself blown to smithereens by an improvised explosive device made with selotape and discarded Furbies, he's considered a 'martyr'. No one deviates from this view, and to me, it seems excessively wishy-washy.
I'm sure that many people don't join the army to be 'heroes', but to earn a reasonable amount of money and to secure a relatively good pension. They don't really anticipate or 'heroically' intend to be exploded by some fundamentalist bearded chap who farms goats.
It's all a bit too 'American' for me, and fantastically un-British. I don't particularly feel comfortable with it, and as the son of ex-military types, I doubt my parents ever pursued such careers for renown; why? because they had a job to do, and they accepted its responsibilities without any expected societal backing.
Soldiers can be heroes, any one can, but this forcing of title rarely seems to be applied by merit anymore. If modern soldiers slaughter and maim in the chase for eternal glory, I can't really respect them. Those in the armed forces agree to a contract, they train and then they're stationed; losing their lives happens to be a possibility, and when they do, I don't see how they're anymore than a hero than a building contractor who falls from a ladder.
This is, of course, dependent on context; but we're not fighting for liberty, we're not in the East to secure our existence. Soldiers are there because of British policy, and those who die are a consequence of it. This being the case, why do so many portray soldiers as heroes and not victims?
It honestly irritates me, and I'm not proud to say it. My father may very well be on his way to Afghanistan, and should he lose his life, then I'll have the understanding that it was because he's a silly bugger. He has two families, he's middle-aged and wants adventure. He'd be training the Afghan police force, a position he's willingly applied for. Should he perish in his efforts, I'd have to be embarrassed for both of us when the tabloids celebrate him as fighting deity.
Rant over.
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Re: Soldiers: heroes?
Never saw the "glory" in war myself. If you've seen the elephant you usually don't fall for that shit. It's the "home front" that comes up with that shit I think. Some wish they could be there (and often regret it if they get their wish), others will never be there so it's safe to egg others on.
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Re: Soldiers: heroes?
I was a soldier and you're pretty much spot on. We basically did as we were told to the best of our abilities. I don't criticise the soldiers, but the politicians who led us into a situation.
I agree with your assessment, generally.
I agree with your assessment, generally.
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Re: Soldiers: heroes?
Nicely written post, Lozzer. I can't understand why a family man would volunteer for something like that, but each to their own. I know someone who is 46 and he reckoned he'd actually been called up from the reserve list (45 at the time iirc) and he returned to Afghanistan recently. I mentioned it to Ashton, actually, and this guy certainly went somewhere for a few weeks but wouldn't say why. I take it your dad didn't get told he had to go?

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Re: Soldiers: heroes?
I agree too Loz. I find the absurd patriotism and "support our boys" to be seriously flawed and outdated. I understand why some kids sign up and I do feel sympathy for those who may have done so naively, but they volunteered to go fight in a pointless political war that's been going on for half of their lives. The Govermnent has a responsibility to support them and their families, but I don't.
Re: Soldiers: heroes?
XD And there I was expecting a shitload of rebukes and social condemnation! Thanks for your sympathizing, it's good to know I'm not some sort of anti-establishment hippy with a chip on his shoulder.
He doesn't, it was completely voluntarily. He rather wants the job though, but there's 70 other applicants for 11 or so positions.I take it your dad didn't get told he had to go?
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Re: Soldiers: heroes?
It's hard to take anyone seriously with that OP if they haven't seen combat. Sorry.
I haven't seen combat either.
I haven't seen combat either.
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Re: Soldiers: heroes?
Why should a civilian not have anything to say about how society views soldiers?Meekychuppet wrote:It's hard to take anyone seriously with that OP if they haven't seen combat. Sorry.
I haven't seen combat either.
What I've found with a few discussions I've had lately is this self-satisfaction that people express with their proffessed open mindedness. In realty it ammounts to wilful ignorance and intellectual cowardice as they are choosing to not form any sort of opinion on a particular topic. Basically "I don't know and I'm not going to look at any evidence because I'm quite happy on this fence."
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Re: Soldiers: heroes?
I didn't say they can't. I said I won't take them seriously.Robert_S wrote:Why should a civilian not have anything to say about how society views soldiers?Meekychuppet wrote:It's hard to take anyone seriously with that OP if they haven't seen combat. Sorry.
I haven't seen combat either.
Rum wrote:Does it occur to you that you have subscribed to the model of maleness you seem to be pushing in order to justify your innately hostile and aggressive nature? I have noticed it often and even wondered if it might be some sort of personality disorder. You should consider this possibility.
Things Rum has diagnosed me with to date: "personality disorder", autism, Aspergers.Rum wrote:Did I leave out being a twat? (With ref to your sig)
eRvin wrote:People can see what a fucking freak you are. Have you not noticed all the disparaging comments you get?
rum wrote:What a cunt you are. Truly.
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Re: Soldiers: heroes?
Fair enough.Meekychuppet wrote:I didn't say they can't. I said I won't take them seriously.Robert_S wrote:Why should a civilian not have anything to say about how society views soldiers?Meekychuppet wrote:It's hard to take anyone seriously with that OP if they haven't seen combat. Sorry.
I haven't seen combat either.
It is still dismissing someone's viewpoint on the issue of how society should view soldiers and whether we civilians should automatically view them as heroes just for having seen combat.
What I've found with a few discussions I've had lately is this self-satisfaction that people express with their proffessed open mindedness. In realty it ammounts to wilful ignorance and intellectual cowardice as they are choosing to not form any sort of opinion on a particular topic. Basically "I don't know and I'm not going to look at any evidence because I'm quite happy on this fence."
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Re: Soldiers: heroes?
If a person walks in to combat at the potential cost their of life, you know what? They can have my respect over someone questioning why. I haven't dismissed the opinion out right, I am simply skeptical about how well informed said opinion is.Robert_S wrote:Fair enough.Meekychuppet wrote:I didn't say they can't. I said I won't take them seriously.Robert_S wrote:Why should a civilian not have anything to say about how society views soldiers?Meekychuppet wrote:It's hard to take anyone seriously with that OP if they haven't seen combat. Sorry.
I haven't seen combat either.
It is still dismissing someone's viewpoint on the issue of how society should view soldiers and whether we civilians should automatically view them as heroes just for having seen combat.
Rum wrote:Does it occur to you that you have subscribed to the model of maleness you seem to be pushing in order to justify your innately hostile and aggressive nature? I have noticed it often and even wondered if it might be some sort of personality disorder. You should consider this possibility.
Things Rum has diagnosed me with to date: "personality disorder", autism, Aspergers.Rum wrote:Did I leave out being a twat? (With ref to your sig)
eRvin wrote:People can see what a fucking freak you are. Have you not noticed all the disparaging comments you get?
rum wrote:What a cunt you are. Truly.
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Re: Soldiers: heroes?
If Lozzer's family has military background, probably quite well informed I imagine. Certainly well written.Meekychuppet wrote:If a person walks in to combat at the potential cost their of life, you know what? They can have my respect over someone questioning why. I haven't dismissed the opinion out right, I am simply skeptical about how well informed said opinion is.Robert_S wrote:Fair enough.Meekychuppet wrote:I didn't say they can't. I said I won't take them seriously.Robert_S wrote:Why should a civilian not have anything to say about how society views soldiers?Meekychuppet wrote:It's hard to take anyone seriously with that OP if they haven't seen combat. Sorry.
I haven't seen combat either.
It is still dismissing someone's viewpoint on the issue of how society should view soldiers and whether we civilians should automatically view them as heroes just for having seen combat.

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Re: Soldiers: heroes?
Possibly, but first person experience would seem to count for a lot in this instance.Tigger wrote:If Lozzer's family has military background, probably quite well informed I imagine. Certainly well written.
Rum wrote:Does it occur to you that you have subscribed to the model of maleness you seem to be pushing in order to justify your innately hostile and aggressive nature? I have noticed it often and even wondered if it might be some sort of personality disorder. You should consider this possibility.
Things Rum has diagnosed me with to date: "personality disorder", autism, Aspergers.Rum wrote:Did I leave out being a twat? (With ref to your sig)
eRvin wrote:People can see what a fucking freak you are. Have you not noticed all the disparaging comments you get?
rum wrote:What a cunt you are. Truly.
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Re: Soldiers: heroes?
Not even after...Meekychuppet wrote:I didn't say they can't. I said I won't take them seriously.Robert_S wrote:Why should a civilian not have anything to say about how society views soldiers?Meekychuppet wrote:It's hard to take anyone seriously with that OP if they haven't seen combat. Sorry.
I haven't seen combat either.
AshtonBlack wrote:I was a soldier and you're pretty much spot on. We basically did as we were told to the best of our abilities. I don't criticise the soldiers, but the politicians who led us into a situation.
I agree with your assessment, generally.
What I've found with a few discussions I've had lately is this self-satisfaction that people express with their proffessed open mindedness. In realty it ammounts to wilful ignorance and intellectual cowardice as they are choosing to not form any sort of opinion on a particular topic. Basically "I don't know and I'm not going to look at any evidence because I'm quite happy on this fence."
-Mr P
The Net is best considered analogous to communication with disincarnate intelligences. As any neophyte would tell you. Do not invoke that which you have no facility to banish.
Audley Strange
-Mr P
The Net is best considered analogous to communication with disincarnate intelligences. As any neophyte would tell you. Do not invoke that which you have no facility to banish.
Audley Strange
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