The Wikileaks databank

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Re: The Wikileaks databank

Post by Don't Panic » Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:31 pm

sandinista wrote:Like I said, I'm not saying the people "deserved it" but it was symbolic. The trade center symbolized the economic imperialism of the US. Read some John Perkins ( a good primer)if you want to better understand, not the symbolism of the attacks themselves, but the reality of economic imperialism, mixed, of course (for Zilla) with the military and government. The military industrial complex.

When you say economic imperialism you mean capitalism, yes? The aggressive pursuit of wealth?
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And those Zumwalts are already useless, they can be taken out with an ICBM.
The world is a thing of utter inordinate complexity and richness and strangeness that is absolutely awesome. I mean the idea that such complexity can arise not only out of such simplicity, but probably absolutely out of nothing, is the most fabulous extraordinary idea. And once you get some kind of inkling of how that might have happened, it's just wonderful. And . . . the opportunity to spend 70 or 80 years of your life in such a universe is time well spent as far as I am concerned.
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Re: The Wikileaks databank

Post by Don't Panic » Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:32 pm

The Mad Hatter wrote:Like refusing to use a condom as a sign of dominance....

Hmm...
Yeah, but someone protecting the public interest would never do things like that. I bet he's even kind to his mother.
Gawd wrote:»
And those Zumwalts are already useless, they can be taken out with an ICBM.
The world is a thing of utter inordinate complexity and richness and strangeness that is absolutely awesome. I mean the idea that such complexity can arise not only out of such simplicity, but probably absolutely out of nothing, is the most fabulous extraordinary idea. And once you get some kind of inkling of how that might have happened, it's just wonderful. And . . . the opportunity to spend 70 or 80 years of your life in such a universe is time well spent as far as I am concerned.
D.N.A.

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Re: The Wikileaks databank

Post by sandinista » Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:37 pm

The Mad Hatter wrote:The US hardly makes money off of its military endeavours. Most of the money in the US comes from making its own people ridiculously unhealthy and dependant on consumer products.
:nutter:
Our struggle is not against actual corrupt individuals, but against those in power in general, against their authority, against the global order and the ideological mystification which sustains it.

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Re: The Wikileaks databank

Post by Ian » Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:39 pm

Don't Panic wrote:
sandinista wrote:Like I said, I'm not saying the people "deserved it" but it was symbolic. The trade center symbolized the economic imperialism of the US. Read some John Perkins ( a good primer)if you want to better understand, not the symbolism of the attacks themselves, but the reality of economic imperialism, mixed, of course (for Zilla) with the military and government. The military industrial complex.

When you say economic imperialism you mean capitalism, yes? The aggressive pursuit of wealth?
How about the Bali nightclub bombing? Or the Madrid trains? Rational targeting against the perpetrators of repression against Islam, or opportunities to provide a public spectacle through mass murder? Terrorism is not always a rational response to imperialist foreign policy. The leaders of al Qaeda picked some very symbolic targets for 9/11, but the people who carried it out had no particular personal grievances against the US. They were more interested in getting their 72 virgins in paradise. Sure the US is a big and powerful target, but to discount the influence of religion in attacks like 9/11 in favor of seeing it primarily through a political light is rather skewed. It has a lot to do with religion.

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Re: The Wikileaks databank

Post by Trolldor » Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:40 pm

Ian wrote:
Don't Panic wrote:
sandinista wrote:Like I said, I'm not saying the people "deserved it" but it was symbolic. The trade center symbolized the economic imperialism of the US. Read some John Perkins ( a good primer)if you want to better understand, not the symbolism of the attacks themselves, but the reality of economic imperialism, mixed, of course (for Zilla) with the military and government. The military industrial complex.

When you say economic imperialism you mean capitalism, yes? The aggressive pursuit of wealth?
How about the Bali nightclub bombing? Or the Madrid trains? Rational targeting against the perpetrators of repression against Islam, or opportunities to provide a public spectacle through mass murder? Terrorism is not always a rational response to imperialist foreign policy. The leaders of al Qaeda picked some very symbolic targets for 9/11, but the people who carried it out had no particular personal grievances against the US. They were more interested in getting their 72 virgins in paradise. Sure the US is a big and powerful target, but to discount the influence of religion in attacks like 9/11 in favor of seeing it primarily through a political light is rather skewed. It has a lot to do with religion.
It has everything to do with religion.
"The fact is that far more crime and child abuse has been committed by zealots in the name of God, Jesus and Mohammed than has ever been committed in the name of Satan. Many people don't like that statement but few can argue with it."

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Re: The Wikileaks databank

Post by sandinista » Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:45 pm

Ian wrote:
Don't Panic wrote:
sandinista wrote:Like I said, I'm not saying the people "deserved it" but it was symbolic. The trade center symbolized the economic imperialism of the US. Read some John Perkins ( a good primer)if you want to better understand, not the symbolism of the attacks themselves, but the reality of economic imperialism, mixed, of course (for Zilla) with the military and government. The military industrial complex.

When you say economic imperialism you mean capitalism, yes? The aggressive pursuit of wealth?
How about the Bali nightclub bombing? Or the Madrid trains? Rational targeting against the perpetrators of repression against Islam, or opportunities to provide a public spectacle through mass murder? Terrorism is not always a rational response to imperialist foreign policy. The leaders of al Qaeda picked some very symbolic targets for 9/11, but the people who carried it out had no particular personal grievances against the US. They were more interested in getting their 72 virgins in paradise. Sure the US is a big and powerful target, but to discount the influence of religion in attacks like 9/11 in favor of seeing it primarily through a political light is rather skewed. It has a lot to do with religion.
I don't discount the religious aspect, I agree it does have a lot to do with it. As does it have a lot to do with the Iraq/Afghanistan invasions and occupations. But it is only one aspect. Foreign policy has more to do with it.
Our struggle is not against actual corrupt individuals, but against those in power in general, against their authority, against the global order and the ideological mystification which sustains it.

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Re: The Wikileaks databank

Post by Trolldor » Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:47 pm

No.
"The fact is that far more crime and child abuse has been committed by zealots in the name of God, Jesus and Mohammed than has ever been committed in the name of Satan. Many people don't like that statement but few can argue with it."

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Re: The Wikileaks databank

Post by Trolldor » Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:48 pm

If foreign policy had a lot to do with it, why would those from Afghanistan attack the US who provided decisive aid - particular in the form of motherfucking rockets - against the Soviet Invasion of Afghanistan?
"The fact is that far more crime and child abuse has been committed by zealots in the name of God, Jesus and Mohammed than has ever been committed in the name of Satan. Many people don't like that statement but few can argue with it."

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Re: The Wikileaks databank

Post by Don't Panic » Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:54 pm

The Mad Hatter wrote:If foreign policy had a lot to do with it, why would those from Afghanistan attack the US who provided decisive aid - particular in the form of motherfucking rockets - against the Soviet Invasion of Afghanistan?
You would expect gratitude from a people who's faith espouses holy war against non-believers?
Gawd wrote:»
And those Zumwalts are already useless, they can be taken out with an ICBM.
The world is a thing of utter inordinate complexity and richness and strangeness that is absolutely awesome. I mean the idea that such complexity can arise not only out of such simplicity, but probably absolutely out of nothing, is the most fabulous extraordinary idea. And once you get some kind of inkling of how that might have happened, it's just wonderful. And . . . the opportunity to spend 70 or 80 years of your life in such a universe is time well spent as far as I am concerned.
D.N.A.

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Re: The Wikileaks databank

Post by JOZeldenrust » Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:55 pm

Ian wrote:
Gawd wrote:Ian won't like this.
Yet again, you assume too much.

What should be the point of Wikileaks? That genuine whistle-blowers have a place to send their information and see it published, or that nobody anywhere has the right to classify anything? The way they've been acting, one would think they really do believe the latter. Sickeningly reckless and naive. If they re-orient themselves towards actually releasing those things which are or could be possibly considered whistle-blowing, I'll applaud them for their efforts.

Assange apologists seem to like Orwell quotes, so here's one for them: "So much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even realize that fire is hot." That applies to Wikileaks pretty well. They've managed to burn a few actual wrong-doers, a whole lot of people who didn't deserve to be burned at all, and the past two weeks they've burned themselves as well.
There are some valid reasons to keep shit secret: preliminary positions in negotiations, because renegotiation becomes impossible once concessions become public, and informants in enemy territory, because they'd be at risk, but transparancy should be the default, and it's the responsibility of the party keeping secrets to keep them under wraps.

If you're using informants, only their contacts need to know their identity. Any other party can just use the anonymous reports by the contacts. Giving access to their info to hundreds of thousands of people is just fucking stupid. It's bound to leak, and when it does it's better if it becomes common knowledge then if it gets into the hands of just the wrong people.

The leaking of diplomatic cables isn't the problem of Wikileaks. Neither was the leaked video of the crew of a combat helicopter shooting up a news crew. If the US can't control their flow of information, that's their fucking problem. And if they don't want their lies found out, they shouldn't fucking lie.

American diplomacy - at least since WWII, and probably before that - relied on the assumption that "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". It has consistently yielded terrible results: installing fascist or criminal regimes in South America, "because the socialists were such a threat". Supporting theocratic or feudal regimes in the Middle East "because the socialists were such a threat".

American diplomacy is counterproductive, and with these leaks we can see why: America is stuck in a nineteenth century mindset of rivaling nation states, where peace and prosperity are functions of power and loyalty. In the interconnected world we live in today, peace and prosperity are the result of mutual dependence, and if the US keeps up its foreign policy, then over the next couple of decades it will alienate most of the international community, and it will lose its position as most powerful nation in the world. I hope the whole Wikileaks bussiness will prove to be a wake-up call.

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Re: The Wikileaks databank

Post by sandinista » Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:56 pm

Don't Panic wrote:
The Mad Hatter wrote:If foreign policy had a lot to do with it, why would those from Afghanistan attack the US who provided decisive aid - particular in the form of motherfucking rockets - against the Soviet Invasion of Afghanistan?
You would expect gratitude from a people who's faith espouses holy war against non-believers?
OK, so if the attack was purely on religious grounds, why the US? What was it an attack on? Christianity? Perhaps I should direct this to Ian?
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Re: The Wikileaks databank

Post by JOZeldenrust » Sat Dec 11, 2010 12:01 am

Ian wrote:
sandinista wrote: haha may not be whistle blowing per say, but... That is great :lol:
Yeah... that's great. :roll:

Maybe you'd like to see the US attacked by way of the destruction of a dam, or a chlorine plant, or see major utilities corrupted. I suspect you would, because you're the type who doesn't seem to differentiate between a country and its citizens. Your first reaction was to say haha and call it a good thing. Like I said - try telling my 5-yr old daughter why the release of that list is "great".

I refer you to my earlier post calling you a wannabe sociopath. :coffee:

EDIT: suppose it was a list of facilities crucial to Canadian health and security, including infrastructure near where you live? Would that be "great"? Would you whine about "freedom of information" then? Boring and pathetic dude. :nono:
The location and functions of all those sites were known to the public. The only thing new Al Qaeda could've learnt from this list was the fact that the US value these sites. Big fucking deal.

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Re: The Wikileaks databank

Post by Trolldor » Sat Dec 11, 2010 12:01 am

I mean, certainly the state of affairs may have left animosity towards the US Government, but any reasonably intelligent populous would have seen that running a plane in to a building filled with innocent people who could in no way be held respponsible for the acts of a Government several decaes ago is a good way to make a point.


Unless you're a Fanatical Muslim.


Oh dear, Joz. Really? I don't think the US has 'installed a fascist or criminal regime' to combat socialism in a long, long time.
OK, so if the attack was purely on religious grounds, why the US? What was it an attack on? Christianity?
Why, the West of course.


No, really. Why else would they bomb a night club at Bali? Riot over cartoons? Films critical of Islam? A man was murdered for such a thing.

To paraphrase Ayaan Hsiri Ali, Islam is incompatible with democracy.
"The fact is that far more crime and child abuse has been committed by zealots in the name of God, Jesus and Mohammed than has ever been committed in the name of Satan. Many people don't like that statement but few can argue with it."

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Re: The Wikileaks databank

Post by JOZeldenrust » Sat Dec 11, 2010 12:03 am

The Mad Hatter wrote:The Hijackers were wealthy, well-educated, fundamentalist Muslims.

The problem there was Islam.
The problem is group loyalty. There are plenty of Muslims who don't blow up people, but many Muslims believe that fellow members of a group they identify are persecuted, and they have good reason to think so. Israel is oppressive towards the Palestinians, and America has meddled in the affairs of other Muslim countries and screwed over the inhabitants a few too many times.

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Re: The Wikileaks databank

Post by Trolldor » Sat Dec 11, 2010 12:05 am

orly?

And again, why a night club? Why train stations in Europe?

9/11 was not the first, and America is not the only target.
"The fact is that far more crime and child abuse has been committed by zealots in the name of God, Jesus and Mohammed than has ever been committed in the name of Satan. Many people don't like that statement but few can argue with it."

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