Student Fees

[Lozzer]

Education should be a right, financed and provided by the public tax like everything else.

Basic education for children, yes. But not all education. .

And why not? It's been managed in this country before, even during years of national struggle. Furthermore, Scotland provides free university education to its citizens, and that's well, Scotland.

[PsychoSerenity]

Education should be a right, financed and provided by the public tax like everything else.
...

Well said Lozzer

[sandinista]

Education should be a right, financed and provided by the public tax like everything else.
...

Well said Lozzer

[Lozzer]

Education should be a right, financed and provided by the public tax like everything else.
...

Well said Lozzer

Or, and perhaps more feasibly, kept at the current intuition fee rate.

[devogue]

Education should be a right, financed and provided by the public tax like everything else.

Up to the point when a person leaves school, yes. After that he has choices to make. If he decides not to go to university he is not going to starve to death - he will find other options, other opportunities. If he wishes to avail of a university education, and the fruits that will follow from it, then the responsibility for financing it should fall on his shoulders.

they're the catalysts and promoters of a 'reform' which is set to draw up the ladder for those from poorer backgrounds.

And yet again - there are no up front fees for full time students.

We expected this nonsense from the Tories, but Clegg had given us his word, and contemptibly, he’s betrayed the bulk of his voting demographic.

On this I agree with you, but not about the dynamic and morality of the bill.

Dev, you talk about how we simply ‘can’t understand’ the packages proposals, and yet over half of the Liberal Democrats voted against it today. I don’t argue this by means of fallacious ad populems and argument from authority, but it shows that even those ‘grasped’ the legislature have rejected it, and if not due to political disagreement, but because of the integrity, fortitude and principle that the Liberal Democrats bragged before the election.

They are shitting themselves that they will lose their seats and their jobs at the next election, so instead of explaining and promoting the bill they are dropping it like a hot potato because they are scared - it's pathetic. Are you seriously saying that some MPs have grown a conscience? pmsl.

However, contrary to what the deputy prime minister said this morning, 100,000 part-time students won’t be eligible for the loans, so they’ll have to pay their fees upfront.

That’s because, according to the Higher Education Funding Council for England, about a third of the 300,000 part-time students are studying for less than 25 per cent of their time.

Hmmm...an average working week is forty hours, so they are spending a gigantic 10 hours a week studying. The Open University has an illustration on its site ( http://www3.open.ac.uk/study/explained/ ... -pay.shtml ) which shows that from a standing start a BA in psychology is attainable in 6 years for a cost of less than £5,000, or less than £1,000 a year - £20 a week. Jesus, even I was saving £50 a week when I was earning £12,000 ten years ago, and I had a personal pension. What's wrong with working in a full time job for 40 hours a week, then studying or an hour and a half in the evening for a distance learning course?

[Lozzer]

Up to the point when a person leaves school, yes. After that he has choices to make. If he decides not to go to university he is not going to starve to death - he will find other options, other opportunities. If he wishes to avail of a university education, and the fruits that will follow from it, then the responsibility for financing it should fall on his shoulders.

Why should it?

And yet again - there are no up front fees for full time students.

But up front fees for over 100,000

They are shitting themselves that they will lose their seats and their jobs at the next election, so instead of explaining and promoting the bill they are dropping it like a hot potato because they are scared - it's pathetic. Are you seriously saying that some MPs have grown a conscience? pmsl.

Yes, perfectly sure on that, particularly with Ming and other seniors who probably have no intention of running for MP again after their current term. But besides that, the rest should be terrified. Clegg has brought them into complete disrepute.

Hmmm...an average working week is forty hours, so they are spending a gigantic 10 hours a week studying.

Yes, over a numerable amount of years. Believe it or not, but that's quite an extensive amount of input and time.

What's wrong with working in a full time job for 40 hours a week, then studying or an hour and a half in the evening for a distance learning course?

Because it's not what students have shed blood, sweat and tears for in attaining A levels. University is more than just education, it's an experience which all students should be entitled to.

[stripes4]

I hope this attempt at the marketisation of education fails and brings this stinking Tory-Whig marriage down with it.

Alas, I shant be holding my breath...

The government has a responsibility to provide an equitable education to all children from all classes at primary and secondary level (the fact that that doesn't happen is indeed a disgrace, but it's a separate issue). "Marketisation" is an unnecessarily emotive term in this case - in suggests that the poor will lose out andthe rich will gain, but as I said above, and as Clegg has repeatedly pointed out, none of the fees are up front - if anything they are a retrospective tax, a small percentage of the huge financial leap that all graduates from all backgrounds will make.

After secondary education a person has choices - to throw their lot in with an apprenticeship or menial work, to accept a lesser wage commensurate with their lesser skills, or they can opt to extend their skills, a choice for which they will ultimately be richly rewarded. There should not be a flat cost to society to support those who will benefit most from their own natural aptitude - that section of society should pay more for the finanical advantage they will gain through their lives becuase of their extra education.

FUCKING well said.

[Coito ergo sum]

What's wrong with working in a full time job for 40 hours a week, then studying or an hour and a half in the evening for a distance learning course?

Plenty.

1. Can't sleep until 2 in the afternoon after watching the sun rise with an ever-lightening bottle of gin.
2. Can't stay in one's robe until 7:30pm, eating pizza and playing video games.
3. Can't shit, shower and shave from 7:30pm to 8:30pm, before meeting friends out at the pub for fish n' chips and drinks until 2am.
4. Can't stay up to watch the sunrise with a bottle of gin, and hopefully a hot little bittie from the pub the night before.

[stripes4]

again. FUCKING WELL SAID!!!

[Trolldor]

I am a fee paying student. My objections are to unnecessary fees - paying a 600 dollar internet levy, and then having to pay per megabyte when using that internet, having to pay a 600 dollar levy on washing machines, and then having to pay $2 every time I use the washing machine, etc. etc. etc.

I have no problem with $16000 which I don't have to pay that till I have gainful employment, and there is no interest accrued at all over any point in time whatsoever.
Were the rate to 'triple', however, then there would be a problem. $48 000 is not a 'light debt' irrespective of interest or not. That puts you back several years in your life, around 5-6, instead of 1-2 with a $16000 debt.

My problem is that we are now 'clients' not 'students'. That our academic achievement is irrelevant as there are bellcurves that MUST be maintained. Only X high distinctions/distinctions can be handed out, only X credits, and everyone else, irrespective of quality, gets the bare minimum of pass.
That is the problem with 'fees'.

[Coito ergo sum]

Up to the point when a person leaves school, yes. After that he has choices to make. If he decides not to go to university he is not going to starve to death - he will find other options, other opportunities. If he wishes to avail of a university education, and the fruits that will follow from it, then the responsibility for financing it should fall on his shoulders.

Why should it?

Because he or she is the one that wants the service. It's the same reason why your dinner tab is none of our concern. "Food" should certainly be a "right" to a greater degree than education, because it is a more basic need, but what you buy at the supermarket and put in the cupboard is nobody else's concern, or burden.

[

Hmmm...an average working week is forty hours, so they are spending a gigantic 10 hours a week studying.

Yes, over a numerable amount of years. Believe it or not, but that's quite an extensive amount of input and time.

We've all been to college....we know it's next to nothing...

What's wrong with working in a full time job for 40 hours a week, then studying or an hour and a half in the evening for a distance learning course?

Because it's not what students have shed blood, sweat and tears for in attaining A levels. University is more than just education, it's an experience which all students should be entitled to.

Let's not over-dramatize it. It ain't that big of a deal. And, people can pay for their own "experiences."

[stripes4]

Oh this is irritating. Nothing is a natural born 'right'. We all have to work our little tits off for what we want, Lozz. I have to work mine off to pay a mortgage and feed two kids and pay for shitty repairs that I have to have done on my car, that I need, so I can go to work, so I can buy food and pay my mortgage. It's all very HARD. No one owes you ANYTHING. You might as well get the idea now, and hang onto the fucker.

[Coito ergo sum]

I am a fee paying student. My objections are to unnecessary fees - paying a 600 dollar internet levy, and then having to pay per megabyte when using that internet, having to pay a 600 dollar levy on washing machines, and then having to pay $2 every time I use the washing machine, etc. etc. etc.

Holy Christ! $600 levy on internet and a per megabyte usage fee? That's bullcrap. I have an air card that I can use anywhere, with any computer with a USB port, that costs me $50 a month flat, unlimited. Your university sucks at negotiating prices.

$600 washing machine "levy"? I can buy a brand new washer and drying in ten minutes at the Home Depot store for about $400 total. Cheap ones, yes - but they'd work, and they'd work for the whole time I was in college. I'd skip the the college washers if I were you, and just go to a laundromat in town, or something. You're being ripped off.

My problem is that we are now 'clients' not 'students'. That our academic achievement is irrelevant as there are bellcurves that MUST be maintained. Only X high distinctions/distinctions can be handed out, only X credits, and everyone else, irrespective of quality, gets the bare minimum of pass.
That is the problem with 'fees'.

One of the real problems with universities these days is the sheer number of folks that go to them. It's becoming 13th, 14th, 15th and 16th grade, where you just "have to go" because your parents "make you" (since we've infantilized our youth lately so that 20 year olds are considered "children"). Half of them don't really want to be there, they just want a degree, and they consider most of what they're learning irrelevant to their lives and careers.

[Coito ergo sum]

Oh this is irritating. Nothing is a natural born 'right'. We all have to work our little tits off for what we want, Lozz. I have to work mine off to pay a mortgage and feed two kids and pay for shitty repairs that I have to have done on my car, that I need, so I can go to work, so I can buy food and pay my mortgage. It's all very HARD. No one owes you ANYTHING. You might as well get the idea now, and hang onto the fucker.

[Lozzer]

Oh this is irritating. Nothing is a natural born 'right'. We all have to work our little tits off for what we want, Lozz.

Yes, I guess children should begin saving their pennies for primary school education then.