'In 'The War on Christmas,' Christmas is winning'

[normal]

In Norway we call it jul (you could call it yule). I don't really care what you call it in English, but jul is jul, and always will be

[maiforpeace]

In Norway we call it jul (you could call it yule). I don't really care what you call it in English, but jul is jul, and always will be

Merry Christmas is a uniquely American and British expression with Christian roots meaning "Christ's Mass".

[eXcommunicate]

You have yet to give a reason why a more inclusive phrase is a negative thing. What does what your employer chooses to give you off have to do with it? There are other holidays around Christmas too, y'know. New year's Eve and New Year's Day being big ones. Throughout most of December I say "Happy Holidays." On Christmas Day of course I would say, "Merry Christmas."

I think we have a fundamental disagreement here. I believe that the truth has a virtue over fiction by virtue of it being the truth. If you do not, there is no inherent difference between the two.

The truth is there is more than one important holiday in December.

That is true, but all the time off of work and extra shopping and all that good stuff are due to Christmas. I respect the other holidays, but without Christmas, this holiday season wouldn't be a big deal at all.

I am not saying Christmas isn't an important, or culturally not the most important in the season. However, I see nothing wrong with saying, "Happy Holidays," because indeed there is more than one holiday this season. Getting upset over the phrase, "Happy Holidays" is so inane. The whole controversy is a non-issue dragged up by the Christian-Right in order to feel like martyrs.

[GreyICE]

I am not saying Christmas isn't an important, or culturally not the most important in the season. However, I see nothing wrong with saying, "Happy Holidays," because indeed there is more than one holiday this season. Getting upset over the phrase, "Happy Holidays" is so inane. The whole controversy is a non-issue dragged up by the Christian-Right in order to feel like martyrs.

I don't disagree, but by the same token, I'm not going to get upset over anyone saying Merry Christmas. It's more correct, and that's fine, and I frankly refuse to give a fuck either way.

There are worse things than that. Let the Christians win their 'war on Christmas,' who gives a fuck? We'll let them continue their slow slide into oblivion.

[eXcommunicate]

I am not saying Christmas isn't an important, or culturally not the most important in the season. However, I see nothing wrong with saying, "Happy Holidays," because indeed there is more than one holiday this season. Getting upset over the phrase, "Happy Holidays" is so inane. The whole controversy is a non-issue dragged up by the Christian-Right in order to feel like martyrs.

I don't disagree, but by the same token, I'm not going to get upset over anyone saying Merry Christmas. It's more correct, and that's fine, and I frankly refuse to give a fuck either way.

There are worse things than that. Let the Christians win their 'war on Christmas,' who gives a fuck? We'll let them continue their slow slide into oblivion.

My main original point was that MSNBC was buying into the nontroversy, not that one side was winning or not.

[Ronja]

You have yet to give a reason why a more inclusive phrase is a negative thing. What does what your employer chooses to give you off have to do with it? There are other holidays around Christmas too, y'know. New year's Eve and New Year's Day being big ones. Throughout most of December I say "Happy Holidays." On Christmas Day of course I would say, "Merry Christmas."

I think we have a fundamental disagreement here. I believe that the truth has a virtue over fiction by virtue of it being the truth. If you do not, there is no inherent difference between the two.

The truth is there is more than one important holiday in December.

And the truth (from the northern hemisphere point of view) is that the celebrations of both Hanukkah and Christmas come quite close to the winter solstice, for which there were a number of pagan celebrations well before Christmas (the Roman Saturnalia festival, the Norse Yule feasting) and even before Hanukkah (ancient Egyptians, Persians and Babylonians all had solstice feasts). Also Native Americans celebrated the solstices. None of these feasts / festivals had anything to do with Christianity or Judaism, and some of these traditions are quite alive and embedded in midwinter celebrations, how much ever those traditions would be called "Christmas" traditions. Like the Fenno-Scandian Yule log, Yule hog (ham), and Yule ale (heir of the original honey mead), the evergreen decorations, mistletoe, giving of gifts, burning candles and other (open) fires...

So GreyICE, why should we choose the "truth" to start from a certain year in history, when the christian church leaders of the time decided that Jesus birthday would be celebrated at Saturnalia time?

[GreyICE]

And the truth (from the northern hemisphere point of view) is that the celebrations of both Hanukkah and Christmas come quite close to the winter solstice, for which there were a number of pagan celebrations well before Christmas (the Roman Saturnalia festival, the Norse Yule feasting) and even before Hanukkah (ancient Egyptians, Persians and Babylonians all had solstice feasts). Also Native Americans celebrated the solstices. None of these feasts / festivals had anything to do with Christianity or Judaism, and some of these traditions are quite alive and embedded in midwinter celebrations, how much ever those traditions would be called "Christmas" traditions. Like the Fenno-Scandian Yule log, Yule hog (ham), and Yule ale (heir of the original honey mead), the evergreen decorations, mistletoe, giving of gifts, burning candles and other (open) fires...

So GreyICE, why should we choose the "truth" to start from a certain year in history, when the christian church leaders of the time decided that Jesus birthday would be celebrated at Saturnalia time?

Because, Ronja, piling up irrelevancies does not make them relevant. It just makes a large pile.

To put it in terms you might understand, when I push my foot down on the gas pedal, many other things are happening. Ahead of me, a car is pulling left. There's a light breeze coming in from the east. A traffic light a quarter of a mile from me is changing color. And yet, we can say that the action of me pushing the accelerator pedal causes the car to speed up.

If you went around the country and documented ten thousand lights that changed color at the exact time my car started to speed up, it would not for one femtosecond suggest a bond of cause and effect.

Minor Jewish holidays, ancient rituals of long-dead cults, made up holidays randomly pinned to late December, these are not why December is the Holiday season. Christmas is. Therefore when stores call it Christmas, refer to the decorations as Christmas decorations, and otherwise reference the fact that the thing being celebrated is Christmas, that's just honesty. I have no issues with honesty.

Here's a full list of things of relevance that happened on July 4th - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_4th

Who knows which one the United States celebrates when they set off fireworks ? Could be the canonization of Saint Ulrich of Augsburg, right?

[Gawdzilla Sama]

christmas .. commercialism ... the whole thing is fucking

yep, fuck it...christmas i nothing but a fucking marketing scam..buy buy buy...besides that it's more sneaky christian bullshit to inject their foul religion into peoples everyday life.

I agree.


Which means I have to go kill myself now.

[sandinista]

christmas .. commercialism ... the whole thing is fucking

yep, fuck it...christmas i nothing but a fucking marketing scam..buy buy buy...besides that it's more sneaky christian bullshit to inject their foul religion into peoples everyday life.

Christmas is what you make it. At my house, it's a time for hubby to get extra time off work. It's a time to have lots of yummy food with the family members I care to still spend time with. It's a time to shower my wonderful children with deserving gifts. It's a time for pretty decorations and lights that make my kids smile.

Yep. Christmas is essentially a secular holiday now.

No actually it's not...no matter how you want to paint it...as "christmas" it is fucking jebus's bday. The name IS important. I never use it, I just go with happy winter generally. The term christmas is christian propaganda to further indoctrinate people, especially children.

[Santa_Claus]

FFS.

The Christians stole Xmas from the Pagans.

It's a mid winter pissup marking both the low point of winter and the start of the march towards the spring. That's why Xmas feels wrong in the warm bits of the world.

At the moment it's called Xmas (In Europe, for most) and the Pope etc has wrapped a lot of their shite around it. including a re-branding. but fundamentaly fuck all to do with Jesus.

Me is happy to reclaim Xmas from the Christians. and IMO it's funnier to keep the name!

[Ronja]

FFS.

The Christians stole Xmas from the Pagans.

It's a mid winter pissup marking both the low point of winter and the start of the march towards the spring.

Yup. In Scandinavia and in Finland we had this proud tradition of killing as many of those pestering, converting bishops and priests as possible - until they managed to get enough lingo to ensure the suspicious peasants that all the good merry making, gluttony, drunkenness etc. at all the same festive times could continue pretty much undisturbed. Blood sacrifices, especially the human ones had to stop, of course (they had their own blood sacrifice ritual) but otherwise it was business as usual. The churches were built at pagan worship places, so people didn't even need to learn new routes to ceremonies.

Seeing as the last pagan (Sami) shaman who was burned as a witch/infidel in Sweden, which Finland then was a part of, died in 1693, the varnish of christianity is not very thick here in the far north. My grandmother, however Lutheran on Sundays, believed in goblins in the woods, house elves, and the water spirit "Näkki" - all part and parcel of the old Finnish pagan religion.

[Kristie]

christmas .. commercialism ... the whole thing is fucking

yep, fuck it...christmas i nothing but a fucking marketing scam..buy buy buy...besides that it's more sneaky christian bullshit to inject their foul religion into peoples everyday life.

Christmas is what you make it. At my house, it's a time for hubby to get extra time off work. It's a time to have lots of yummy food with the family members I care to still spend time with. It's a time to shower my wonderful children with deserving gifts. It's a time for pretty decorations and lights that make my kids smile.

Yep. Christmas is essentially a secular holiday now.

No actually it's not...no matter how you want to paint it...as "christmas" it is fucking jebus's bday. The name IS important. I never use it, I just go with happy winter generally. The term christmas is christian propaganda to further indoctrinate people, especially children.

What's in a name? My name is Kristie, and all the books about meaning of names says it's a Christian name. I am not Christian. I'm the Kristie I want to be regardless of my Christian name. Christmas is the Christmas I want it to be, regardless of it's Christian name.

[sandinista]

No actually it's not...no matter how you want to paint it...as "christmas" it is fucking jebus's bday. The name IS important. I never use it, I just go with happy winter generally. The term christmas is christian propaganda to further indoctrinate people, especially children.

What's in a name? My name is Kristie, and all the books about meaning of names says it's a Christian name. I am not Christian. I'm the Kristie I want to be regardless of my Christian name. Christmas is the Christmas I want it to be, regardless of it's Christian name.

Whats in a name? Are you serious? If you can't see that CHRISTmas is obviously meant to be a christian based holiday than...well...

[Trolldor]

lololol.

It started off as one and has been appropriated.

Things change over time in case you hadn't noticed.

[Animavore]

Whats in a name? Are you serious? If you can't see that CHRISTmas is obviously meant to be a christian based holiday than...well...

by that logic we should throw ou t thursday (Thor's day).
words change meaning and significance over time and place. a faggot used to be a bundle of sticks. in england it's a meaty treat and over on these isles you can get away with smoking a fag.
so i don't get the big deal with calling christmas, 'christmas'. i think it's bad form when atheists start whining about tradition just because it has a religious connotation.