Smash the State! - Tory HQ stormed!

[Santa_Claus]

I am not opposed to violence on principal as sometimes it is justified. Violence works. At the moment you may disagree with me, but if I hit you in the head with a hammer enough times you will agree with me.

But back to the protest..........

.........for a mass organised protest I would go for a campaign of Civil Obediance.

In the brave new world where a zillion things are illegal or regulated then plenty of scope to jam up the wheels of the bureauracy, not by making things up but by reporting everything that you are required to. or can. Some legal back up (or at least pointers) would be helpful to avoid getting prosecuted yourself - as the UK is on heightened terrorist alert (and we are all meant to be "aware" ) then I would think every genuine suspicion would be merited - gotta remember that a named person in the bureacracy is not going to want to be the person who ignored the next 911 warning (bad for promotion) even if all they do is record the suspicion, every little bit gums up the system. I was on the tube and just as I got on someone who looked nervous got off, and I heard him say something that could have been "bomb". but I couldn't swear to it...........and of course litter if you see someone drop litter why not report the crime, it could be part of a terrorist plot? probably not - but the Govt better placed than me to decide. I can help though, with a rough description of the offender.

[JimC]

and you think some shit on a doorstep is going to change the governments plans? Don't think so. Blockades, do you think that would change anything? The peaceful sit down picnic "protest" would also accomplish nothing. It was done at the G20 in Toronto and accomplished nothing but getting protesters arrested. When I asked "such as..." I was looking for actions that would actually have some effect on government decisions and neo liberal policies. Sure anyone can come up with "clever" protest ideas, but as I was saying previous, they will accomplish nothing. Even if, as you are saying the students simply refused to pay the increase, all that would mean is their schooling would be done.

Find me somewhere in the Western world in the post WW2 years where violent, destructive action achieved real change in government policy that peaceful protest was totally ineffective in altering...

(not counting liberation struggles in 3rd world countries to throw out colonial remnants...)

[sandinista]

and you think some shit on a doorstep is going to change the governments plans? Don't think so. Blockades, do you think that would change anything? The peaceful sit down picnic "protest" would also accomplish nothing. It was done at the G20 in Toronto and accomplished nothing but getting protesters arrested. When I asked "such as..." I was looking for actions that would actually have some effect on government decisions and neo liberal policies. Sure anyone can come up with "clever" protest ideas, but as I was saying previous, they will accomplish nothing. Even if, as you are saying the students simply refused to pay the increase, all that would mean is their schooling would be done.

Find me somewhere in the Western world in the post WW2 years where violent, destructive action achieved real change in government policy that peaceful protest was totally ineffective in altering...

(not counting liberation struggles in 3rd world countries to throw out colonial remnants...)

Find me somewhere post 2001 where "peaceful protest" has effected meaningful change on government/neo liberal policies. I must admit I am speaking mostly from a north american standpoint as I have never been to europe or australia, perhaps those kinds of actions work there still, they don't here.

[JimC]

and you think some shit on a doorstep is going to change the governments plans? Don't think so. Blockades, do you think that would change anything? The peaceful sit down picnic "protest" would also accomplish nothing. It was done at the G20 in Toronto and accomplished nothing but getting protesters arrested. When I asked "such as..." I was looking for actions that would actually have some effect on government decisions and neo liberal policies. Sure anyone can come up with "clever" protest ideas, but as I was saying previous, they will accomplish nothing. Even if, as you are saying the students simply refused to pay the increase, all that would mean is their schooling would be done.

Find me somewhere in the Western world in the post WW2 years where violent, destructive action achieved real change in government policy that peaceful protest was totally ineffective in altering...

(not counting liberation struggles in 3rd world countries to throw out colonial remnants...)

Find me somewhere post 2001 where "peaceful protest" has effected meaningful change on government/neo liberal policies. I must admit I am speaking mostly from a north american standpoint as I have never been to europe or australia, perhaps those kinds of actions work there still, they don't here.

Ducked that question nicely, I see...

However, I am coming from a perspective that you would probably repudiate, that it is the will of the people, as expressed in some form of parlamentary democracy, that should ultimately prevail. Non-violent protest movements, union action, boycotts, media stunts and many other things are part of the mix which can affect and mobilise public opinion, and either lead to a change in policy (if the government of the day sees which way the wind blows), or a change of government at the next election.

And yes, I know that media bias can hamper this, that party systems in government can get too cosy, and that corporations are canny enough to use whatever influence they can...

As against that, Australia has a strong and proud tradition of union involvement in politics, and a diverse media with an independent ABC.

The key for me is that the anarchist-inspired violence at international meetings over the past 10 years have caused nothing but widespread revulsion in the vast majority of the populace in the west, completely tarnishing and devaluing the sometimes valid arguments about international economic trends they may wish to put in the public domain. Small, violent bands of protesters are the ultimate elitists - the whole, deceptive "vanguard of the people" crap that the extreme left (which I am not suggesting you belong to) has used to justify its deeply anti-democratic position since the days of the bolsheviks...

[Trolldor]

I would say he is part of the extreme left. The guy thinks power centralised into a single body is a great way to run a country.

[JimC]

I would say he is part of the extreme left. The guy thinks power centralised into a single body is a great way to run a country.

No, I think you will find he is part of the "far but not quite extreme" left...

Someone from the extreme left would not even bother attempting to have a rational argument with a vile centrist...

[sandinista]

and you think some shit on a doorstep is going to change the governments plans? Don't think so. Blockades, do you think that would change anything? The peaceful sit down picnic "protest" would also accomplish nothing. It was done at the G20 in Toronto and accomplished nothing but getting protesters arrested. When I asked "such as..." I was looking for actions that would actually have some effect on government decisions and neo liberal policies. Sure anyone can come up with "clever" protest ideas, but as I was saying previous, they will accomplish nothing. Even if, as you are saying the students simply refused to pay the increase, all that would mean is their schooling would be done.

Find me somewhere in the Western world in the post WW2 years where violent, destructive action achieved real change in government policy that peaceful protest was totally ineffective in altering...

(not counting liberation struggles in 3rd world countries to throw out colonial remnants...)

Find me somewhere post 2001 where "peaceful protest" has effected meaningful change on government/neo liberal policies. I must admit I am speaking mostly from a north american standpoint as I have never been to europe or australia, perhaps those kinds of actions work there still, they don't here.

Ducked that question nicely, I see...

However, I am coming from a perspective that you would probably repudiate, that it is the will of the people, as expressed in some form of parlamentary democracy, that should ultimately prevail. Non-violent protest movements, union action, boycotts, media stunts and many other things are part of the mix which can affect and mobilise public opinion, and either lead to a change in policy (if the government of the day sees which way the wind blows), or a change of government at the next election.

And yes, I know that media bias can hamper this, that party systems in government can get too cosy, and that corporations are canny enough to use whatever influence they can...

As against that, Australia has a strong and proud tradition of union involvement in politics, and a diverse media with an independent ABC.

The key for me is that the anarchist-inspired violence at international meetings over the past 10 years have caused nothing but widespread revulsion in the vast majority of the populace in the west, completely tarnishing and devaluing the sometimes valid arguments about international economic trends they may wish to put in the public domain. Small, violent bands of protesters are the ultimate elitists - the whole, deceptive "vanguard of the people" crap that the extreme left (which I am not suggesting you belong to) has used to justify its deeply anti-democratic position since the days of the bolsheviks...

some more ducking and weaving going on. I don't believe that any of the protests of the last ten years (which you label as violent, but more often than not it is the pigs causing the violence) have tarnished any valid arguments, nor do I think the vast majority of people are repulsed by it (although that is definitely how the media reports it). It is more a sign of desperation from people who know that "democracy" as it is represented in neo liberal societies is an illusion. Neo liberalism is deeply anti democratic and that is the reason people feel the need to resort to direct action.

I would say he is part of the extreme left. The guy thinks power centralised into a single body is a great way to run a country.

No, I think you will find he is part of the "far but not quite extreme" left...

Someone from the extreme left would not even bother attempting to have a rational argument with a vile centrist...

No, I think you'll find that I am not a part of the extreme left. The label "extreme" is only used by those who attempt to frame the political landscape to suit their own interests. The "center" is represented as the status quo, as business as usual. I don't accept that form of labeling.

[Trolldor]

lolno.

[sandinista]

lolno.

So, back to being a genius I see. "lolno"...wow, what an insight, what would the board be without that kind of analysis?

[Feck]

What makes Governments think is numbers ,Big numbers ,If a peaceful protest gets bigger numbers and more sympathetic coverage in the media then it is harder to ignore .Smashing a few bank windows and having a bit of a riot may grab headlines but if you want to make a point smash EVERY bank window in the country one sunday night .

Peaceful protest should be one thing direct action another ...if a million people blockade Westminster and the same day the conservative and liberal party buildings go up in flames across the country then they might get the idea that A: the majority hate their policies B: there is a scary hard core who will hurt them .

MP's only care about London a transport strike Bus, Rail , underground and taxi's would be stunning , A rolling blockade on most of the main roads around London at the same time would get the point across .

[sandinista]

What makes Governments think is numbers ,Big numbers ,If a peaceful protest gets bigger numbers and more sympathetic coverage in the media then it is harder to ignore .Smashing a few bank windows and having a bit of a riot may grab headlines but if you want to make a point smash EVERY bank window in the country one sunday night .

Peaceful protest should be one thing direct action another ...if a million people blockade Westminster and the same day the conservative and liberal party buildings go up in flames across the country then they might get the idea that A: the majority hate their policies B: there is a scary hard core who will hurt them .

MP's only care about London a transport strike Bus, Rail , underground and taxi's would be stunning , A rolling blockade on most of the main roads around London at the same time would get the point across .

I don't think numbers even mean that much to governments anymore, money is far more important. In canaduh anyway, voter turnout generally hovers around 50%, meaning 50% know elections are BS and that this party or that one are all the same. Can barely strike here either, you'll just get legislated back to work. Blockades are just broken up by riot pigs with tear gas.

[Feck]

There are answers to riot pigs ,it has been done ,but that doesn't help the cause ,organise the pitched battles with the riot squads on your own ground and terms just because The look of fear in their eyes when they are trapped ,over manned and out planned is awesome BUT this is not Romania the state will not collapse if the people rise up .The most we can hope for is that he bastard minority Government actually take some time to think and plan what is best for the majority of citizens .That means the majority have to be onside ,you are not going to get the MASS support and civil disobedience needed to effect change if Protests end in violence .

Direct action should be organised like terrorism , the government and in particular the political parties responsible should live in fear

But I know for a fact that the peaceful marches in Edinburgh city where nobody fought but the police behaved like bastards had more effect on the general public than the fights at the Gleneagles G8

[Trolldor]

Police are the arm, not the arbiter, of the law.