The "Sanity" Rally. Is Jon Stewart naive?

[camoguard]

BTW, I went and read gallops 2010 predictions. And that's pretty much what I'm saying. I say Democrats have the unballoted win but they have a history of lackadaisical participation. I'm still waiting for a national turnout number for the 2010 election.

[Rob]

Where's your beloved Palin speaking up about Savage and Hannity?

Why should she? She is just as bad in my opinion.

[JimC]

That's a personal attack? I mean maybe if I called him a wanker or something. I was expressing exactly what I thought of the entire "oh noes the left started it I can't remember the entire Bush administration and the noise conservative 'leaders' were making."

I guess I'll try and find a slightly less expressive way to say what I think of that revisionist piece of bullcrap next time.

GreyICE, it was only the "Fuck you" that was a personal attack. The rest was a robust expression of political opinion, which is fine. You can attack the message as strongly as you like, but not the poster.

[Coito ergo sum]

The "sanity" rally was just a bunch of leftists who secretly realize that Obama went too far, but aren't willing to admit it to themselves yet.

The fact is, the present polarization is directly due to Obama's forcing his "stimulus", bailouts, and health care plan through on party line votes, instead of being willing to compromise in a bipartisan way. Even atheist liberals interested in bipartisanship could learn a lesson from bible: "first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye".

Wait, what the fuck?

Have you been dead for the past decade? The left was called traitors under the Bush administration, by important conservative pundits.

I wouldn't say anyone important. Who? Ann Coulter? Hardly "important."

And, so what? The right were called names by the left - e.g. Moveon.org, Code Pink, International Answer, etc.

Really? So Bill O'Reilly can call people who protested the Iraq War Unamerican, can smear the ACLU and people who support them as traitors, and it's the same as Code Pink, an organization with a membership that probably numbers 10,000 at best?

I don't recall hearing him call the ACLU traitors, or people that protest the Iraq War "unAmerican." I have heard him say that people who oppose the Iraq war are entitled to their opinion, but that he thinks they are wrong. He also said that he thinks the ACLU is opposed to everything the government wants to do to protect the country from terrorism and he said that he thinks the ACLU are terrorists as a result. Sort of extreme on his part. I disagree with it. I'm not a fan of O'Reilly and don't watch his show.

But, yeah, even if I assume you're correct about these wild allegations of "treason" - it's not much different than Code Pink, Moveon.org and international answer. Moveon.org called George Bush a traitor, by saying that he was committing war crimes, and you can just look at some of the statements of: Ken O'Keefe. Edward Jayne. PeaceAware, Take Back the Media, Human Rights Action, Scott Ritter, Harvey Wasserman....what about Keith Olbermann? He railed against Bush and Cheney regularly - repeatedly called for impeachment, etc.

What about the false attacks on the Chamber of Commerce?

Sean Hannity accuses peace protesters of committing sedition and treason, and it's the same as a video sharing website that took in some nutcases? Savage blasts whoever the hell he wants, and it's the same as a marginalized group of anti-Semites?

It's the same as Olbermann, Maddow, Matthews, some NPR folks, Moveon.org, and host of other organizations.

And maybe, maybe you'd even have a point if you had republican congressmen standing up and saying this stuff was nonsense, if you had Bush during the election criticizing these folks.

Why would that happen? Do we have Democrat Congressmen standing up and saying the ridiculous statements about the previous administration were wrong? No, you had Democrat Congressmen like Alan Grayson talking about the "blood dripping from Dick Cheney's teeth." Cheney was just angry because "The President doesn't shoot old men in the face." He said "Scientists have studied for years why some people have a conscience and some don't. Some are Democrats and some are Republicans." He called Republicans "utterly unscrupulous" knuckle-dragging neanderthals. He said Republicans want people to die.

Kanye West said Bush hated black people, Natalie Mains said she was embarrassed to be from Texas because of Bush, Morrissey wished Bush had died instead of Ronald Reagan. Nancy Pelosi called the early teabaggers "unAmerican."

You know, the way John Kerry criticized MoveOn: http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/20 ... r-the-top/

He only criticized Moveon's ridiculous charge of treason against General Petraus, not Republicans. Just because someone is a general doesn't make him a Republican. Petraus is now serving under Obama. Moveon was over the top, because they're a pack of lying assholes.

Where's Bush getting mad at O'Reilly?

The same place as Obama getting mad at Olbermann, Matthews and Maddow.

Where's your beloved Palin

I hate Sarah Palin.

speaking up about Savage and Hannity?

I don't know. The same place that your beloved Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi are when they're not speaking up about Alan Grayson or the gang at MSNBC.

Where's these 'leaders' who take the principled stand on the right?

Nowhere. I don't see either side taking a "principled stand." I think you've gotten me wrong a bit. I am not saying the Democrats are worse. I'm saying they do it just as much. It's par for the course. The Democrats are just as large, just as popular and just as well funded as the Republicans. They aren't some oppressed group being held down by the big-bad Republicans who won't play nice. None of the arseholes are nice.

[Coito ergo sum]

Hey, if sand was wrong, it's hard to see how. The blue voters were all pretty much alive in the same proportions. They just didn't come out to vote. And yet the rally was one of the biggest in D.C. Somebody was naive and the midterms paid for it.

That's not exactly it.

The voters that won the election for Obama in '08 were the "Independent" voters. These folks, to the tune of something like 2/3 of them, voted for Obama in 2008. In 2010, however, that same demographic voted something like 2/3 of them in favor of Republican and Tea Party candidates.

It's not that blue voters didn't come out, it's that the fence sitters hopped from one side of the fence to the other in huge numbers.

Do you think the Rally had an effect?

None that I could see.

1. The rally was billed as nonpartisan and neutral - so, what "effect" would be expected? Is sanity equivalent to Democrat?

2. I think the Independents have some splainin to do, actually. I, for the life of me, can't see how anyone could (knowing what he stood for and promised) vote for Obama in '08 and then completely reverse themselves by voting Repub/Tea Party in '10. The only answer I keep coming up with is that they voted for Obama not knowing or caring what he was specifically promising to do or calling for. All the independents want is for things to "get better" and the economy to recover. If things are going good - fine. If not - they're pissed. I don't want it to be true, but I guess it is: the independents that swung the election to Obama in 08 and then reversed themselves in 2010 are just not very well informed politically - they blow with the winds.

It's a sad commentary on the United States.

[Coito ergo sum]

That's a personal attack? I mean maybe if I called him a wanker or something. I was expressing exactly what I thought of the entire "oh noes the left started it I can't remember the entire Bush administration and the noise conservative 'leaders' were making."

I guess I'll try and find a slightly less expressive way to say what I think of that revisionist piece of bullcrap next time.

Saying "fuck you" is probably a personal attack, unless it was being interposed in an interrogative sense or as an offer.

Calling him a wanker would probably not raise an eyebrow around here. Wanking is viewed quite favorably at rationalia.com, I have found.

[Warren Dew]

GreyICE, it was only the "Fuck you" that was a personal attack.

And here I thought it was a proposition.

I think I'm actually happier with it being a personal attack.

[Warren Dew]

I don't recall hearing him call the ACLU traitors, or people that protest the Iraq War "unAmerican." I have heard him say that people who oppose the Iraq war are entitled to their opinion, but that he thinks they are wrong. He also said that he thinks the ACLU is opposed to everything the government wants to do to protect the country from terrorism and he said that he thinks the ACLU are terrorists as a result. Sort of extreme on his part. I disagree with it. I'm not a fan of O'Reilly and don't watch his show.

I was a member of the ACLU at the time and still am. It didn't bother me a bit. I do recall some in the Bush administration - possibly Cheney - recognizing that it was patriotic dissent and not treachery.

Basically, if it appears on television, it's worth ignoring.

[eXcommunicate]

Is Rationalia the type of place where a full 2-paragraph response is ignored in favor of a pissing match?

[Coito ergo sum]

Is Rationalia the type of place where a full 2-paragraph response is ignored in favor of a pissing match?

I'll have a go at a pissing match. With the right amount of beer, I can really get some distance and longevity going.

[GreyICE]

Coito, I am no fan of the 'post chop' style of argument, where you ignore what was said in favor of some sort of tit for tat.

I think you made very few coherent arguments. You want to draw an equivalence that does not exist. Who, according to the right wing, are the major left wing media sources? Why, they'll happily start listing. CNN, NBC, NY Times, etc. etc. Now, who are the major right wing media sources? Well, some claim Fox News is centrist, but it's not. NY Post, Daily News, Rush Limbaugh, etc.

Compare the levels of vitriol and hatred. You get one show on a small news channel, MSNBC, which according to any right winger is just a small part of the liberal media. We have multiple instances of idiots sounding off on Fox, the largest right wing news organization. Does this even come close to comparing? Of course not. You demonstrate this yourself. You cherry pick groups like MoveOn and Code Pink while we quote the largest right wing news organization. You want your few crazies to stack up to a DEMONSTRATED and REPEATED level of hatred and vitriol from the LARGEST right wing news source.

That's not apples and oranges, that's apples and airplanes.

It's like some dumb hick drawing a comparison between evolution and creationism. "Well, on one side half of Americans believe in Evolution, on the other side half believe creationism, looks about fucking even to me, both sides are about the same."

[JimC]

Is Rationalia the type of place where a full 2-paragraph response is ignored in favor of a pissing match?

A fairer question would be "Is Rationalia the type of place where some posters ignore a full 2-paragraph response in favor of a pissing match?"

The answer, as for the vast majority of internet forums, would be "of course"

[Coito ergo sum]

Coito, I am no fan of the 'post chop' style of argument, where you ignore what was said in favor of some sort of tit for tat.

I think you made very few coherent arguments. You want to draw an equivalence that does not exist. Who, according to the right wing, are the major left wing media sources? Why, they'll happily start listing. CNN, NBC, NY Times, etc. etc. Now, who are the major right wing media sources? Well, some claim Fox News is centrist, but it's not. NY Post, Daily News, Rush Limbaugh, etc.

Compare the levels of vitriol and hatred. You get one show on a small news channel, MSNBC, which according to any right winger is just a small part of the liberal media. We have multiple instances of idiots sounding off on Fox, the largest right wing news organization. Does this even come close to comparing? Of course not. You demonstrate this yourself. You cherry pick groups like MoveOn and Code Pink while we quote the largest right wing news organization. You want your few crazies to stack up to a DEMONSTRATED and REPEATED level of hatred and vitriol from the LARGEST right wing news source.

That's not apples and oranges, that's apples and airplanes.

It's like some dumb hick drawing a comparison between evolution and creationism. "Well, on one side half of Americans believe in Evolution, on the other side half believe creationism, looks about fucking even to me, both sides are about the same."

I did not ignore anything you said. I addressed very point.

You think I didn't draw coherent arguments? That's fine for you, but frankly I didn't think yours was coherent from the start.

Compare the levels of vitriol and hatred? I find the vitriol from the MSNBC crowd to be miles above average, and I find the vitriol from my 'liberal' friends to be much higher than among my conservative friends. I find it curious the ease at which liberals bandy about the terms "hate," "phobia," and "stupid" (or "idiot" "tard" and what not).

But - nevertheless - MSNBC is at least as vitriolic as Fox - MSNBC doesn't even PRETEND to be unbiased. Fox makes some pretense at being balanced, but I agree, it's the most right wing of the television media sources.

The multiple idiots on MSNBC are equal to the multiple idiots on Fox News - the only difference is the number of people who choose to listen. MSNBC says they are doing well in the ratings. Fox says they aren't.

I didn't list any "crazies." MSNBC is a cable news station 24-7, chock full of liberal programming and chock full of vitriolic nonsense. And, I'll point to Air America the radio station - Young Turks radio program, etc. These voices are not "the crazies" -- I hear liberals laud Olberman and Maddow and Matthews all the time.

And, I've never hear liberals call "Moveon.org" crazies - that'd be a first.

Frankly, I just find the liberals to be whiners on this issue. They don't give a crap if Congressman Alan Grayson (also not a "crazy" - he was a US Congressman, for crying out loud) makes scurrilous allegations alleging crimes and other treacherous behavior and claiming that the administration are basically murderers with blood dripping from their teeth, but they whine and cry if some radio host says they're not being patriotic? Please....

Both parties do this crap. It's never been any different. Both sides think the attacks on them are unfair, and both think the attacks on the other side are unfair.

[GreyICE]

Oh, so you admit that CNN, CBS, NBC, and ABC are all centrist then? You are one of the very rare right wingers who refuses to believe the old canard about the media being liberal and left of center?

[eXcommunicate]

MSNBC is at least as vitriolic as Fox

Quoted for the lulz. I think this thread has run its course.