The "Sanity" Rally. Is Jon Stewart naive?

[Trolldor]

I can't believe you don't know the answer. Never heard of neo liberalism? A genius like yourself? A man who knows international law inside and out, who knows the political structure, nuances, and struggles of every single country on earth. Come on...now you're just pulling me leg.

Can't answer it can you?

[maiforpeace]

Thanks for the flowers...no not simply an excuse for an evil minded comedian to push his ideology, but he certainly does push an ideology. Does on his tv show as well. Besides, obviously, pushing a neo liberal ideology, the rally probably had a lot of reasons for existing...rallying democratic support, countering the tea baggers, publicity for Stewart etc.

Those weren't just flowers, they are garlands...

[Coito ergo sum]

I hear very often about how the government spending in the 30s pulled us out of the depression - yet, the collapse occurred in 1929 and in 1939 unemployment was 20%. World War 2 pulled us out of the depression, because 2 million men went overseas for 5 years, and the military industrial complex increased demand for industrial goods. The men came back from the war and there were more industries and manufacturing plants than private industry knew what to do with, and they converted much of them over to civilian manufacturing plants and the US took the lead in airplane manufacture, automobile manufacture, home appliances, electronics and every other industry in the world -- NOT because of any "american exceptionalism" but because of the circumstances at the time and that the US had the means and the opportunity to do it.

Most people are always willing to ignore facts that don't fit their theories.

We CAN'T remain a leader in the world merely as an information and service nation.

I don't see why not.

For millenia - from the agricultural revolution all the way up to the 19th century - most of the western economy was agriculture. It employed 90% of the population and made up 90% of economic output. Then came the industrial revolution, which greatly reduced the labor required to grow crops, to the point where everyone could have as much to eat as they wanted on a minority of the labor pool. It was only then that, even in the U.S., labor employed in manufacturing overtook that in agriculture.

Over the last few decades, due to automation, the labor needed for manufacturing has been reduced to the point where it doesn't take that many people to produce enough manufactured goods for everyone. Like it or not, information and services are going to be absorbing a large and growing proportion of the labor pool for the foreseeable future.

To me, it seems like it behooves us to lead in information and services, just as it was good to lead in manufacturing a century ago. While I'm still happy the U.S. is a major exporter of aircraft, just as it's still a major exporter of food, manufacturing is a shrinking proportion of the economy, and I don't think we should focus on it too much.

In today's world, we have to be able to make our own tanks, guns, planes, and everything else that we create for national defense. Loss of manufacturing and heavy industry will be a loss of the knowhow and capacity to build those things, eventually. We can't buy military equipment from China.

Also, we need to "make" stuff, or eventually there will be less and less reason for other countries to pay us money. As the third world rises, the US will not be needed for the "information" services we can provide.

[Robert_S]

Hey Warren, Coito and/or Moderator:

I think the benefits of keeping domestic manufacturing deserves its own thread. I'd like to join in a discussion of it without shouting out the sanity rally discussion.

[maiforpeace]

Hey Warren, Coito and/or Moderator:

I think the benefits of keeping domestic manufacturing deserves its own thread. I'd like to join in a discussion of it without shouting out the sanity rally discussion.

You aren't asking us to work, are you?

Warren and CES - would you be open to splitting off the domestic manufacturing part of discussion in a new thread?

[Coito ergo sum]

Hey Warren, Coito and/or Moderator:

I think the benefits of keeping domestic manufacturing deserves its own thread. I'd like to join in a discussion of it without shouting out the sanity rally discussion.

You aren't asking us to work, are you?

Warren and CES - would you be open to splitting off the domestic manufacturing part of discussion in a new thread?

I abstain.

[camoguard]

My reaction to the OP:

I too think the rally failed to produce political fruits whether political results were the goals is a separate point. I felt a political point and I tried to attend but got stuck in the Metro till about 2:30pm when I arrived at the end of the rally.

I've got the following current opinions.
1. The Republicans do a better job of rallying even when the points seem nonsensical to me. I think some of their political positions are noteworthy but the ties to the Christian-right make me pause everytime. However, it doesn't stop the Republicans from rallying even when the cameras focus on the idiots such as ODonnell.
2. Liberals do not do as good of a job of continuing to motivate the people they motivated in the first place. It's as if the people with the IQ and the degree advantages are just not as interested in having an opinion.
3. Midterms tend to favor the party opposite the white house.

My prescription is that the Liberal party needs to continue to do more round the clock soul searching including continued contact with the commoners that voted for them to make sure they don't take their mandates too far and that the commoners get informed clearly why the party made decision X, decision Y and so on. They should hear it from the horses' mouths. And also, liberals should be able to wield the apparently motivating fear rhetoric to bind all nonChristians to the fear of a Christian right take over long enough to make the Republicans break off their outspoken Christian division. but to do that, liberals need to be prepared to hold centrist views for long enough to finish the job.

[Eriku]

Methinks the smart people on the forum don't spend much time arguing politics. I'm trying to get that level of smarts but progress is slow.

Depends on your definition of smarts ;P anybody can be a genius in their own way, and it needn't be academia or arts.

Spoil your memory??? You have to be joking...why the fuck would you give a shit what I have to say?

I don't. So, why bother staying on my case and being such a cynic about the whole thing?
What I'm saying is, you've got some real attitude problems.

sandinista has every right to raise a few questions regarding what this rally actually was. Take a page out of Voltaire's book and let him disagree with you, and vice versa.

I didn't go through this thread with a fine-tooth comb, but I didn't see him insisting that you're miserable and have attitude problems.

[sandinista]

Methinks the smart people on the forum don't spend much time arguing politics. I'm trying to get that level of smarts but progress is slow.

Depends on your definition of smarts ;P anybody can be a genius in their own way, and it needn't be academia or arts.

Spoil your memory??? You have to be joking...why the fuck would you give a shit what I have to say?

I don't. So, why bother staying on my case and being such a cynic about the whole thing?
What I'm saying is, you've got some real attitude problems.

sandinista has every right to raise a few questions regarding what this rally actually was. Take a page out of Voltaire's book and let him disagree with you, and vice versa.

I didn't go through this thread with a fine-tooth comb, but I didn't see him insisting that you're miserable and have attitude problems.

thanks Eriku, the reality is, there are just some folks who can't deal with opinions which differ from their own. It's like talking to a christian and really trying to get them to explain why they believe the crazy shit they believe...by the end of the conversation they'll be closing their eyes, refusing to discuss any further, calling you names (like a grump or that you have an attitude problem for not letting them believe what they want to believe) and finally just throwing up their arms and saying...it's just faith. People don't like their beliefs to be challenged. Automatic reaction is to insult. Doesn't bother me, the way I see it, when people get that defensive it usually means they were at least forced to think a little.

[Eriku]

Methinks the smart people on the forum don't spend much time arguing politics. I'm trying to get that level of smarts but progress is slow.

Depends on your definition of smarts ;P anybody can be a genius in their own way, and it needn't be academia or arts.

Spoil your memory??? You have to be joking...why the fuck would you give a shit what I have to say?

I don't. So, why bother staying on my case and being such a cynic about the whole thing?
What I'm saying is, you've got some real attitude problems.

sandinista has every right to raise a few questions regarding what this rally actually was. Take a page out of Voltaire's book and let him disagree with you, and vice versa.

I didn't go through this thread with a fine-tooth comb, but I didn't see him insisting that you're miserable and have attitude problems.

thanks Eriku, the reality is, there are just some folks who can't deal with opinions which differ from their own. It's like talking to a christian and really trying to get them to explain why they believe the crazy shit they believe...by the end of the conversation they'll be closing their eyes, refusing to discuss any further, calling you names (like a grump or that you have an attitude problem for not letting them believe what they want to believe) and finally just throwing up their arms and saying...it's just faith. People don't like their beliefs to be challenged. Automatic reaction is to insult. Doesn't bother me, the way I see it, when people get that defensive it usually means they were at least forced to think a little.

Hard to hold a grudge, we've been evolutionarily programmed to do these things. For all I know it's what I'm doing now and I'll be laughing at myself in twenty years. :shrug:

edit: someone needs to sort out a shrug emoticon.

[Ian]

Spoil your memory??? You have to be joking...why the fuck would you give a shit what I have to say?

I don't. So, why bother staying on my case and being such a cynic about the whole thing?
What I'm saying is, you've got some real attitude problems.

sandinista has every right to raise a few questions regarding what this rally actually was. Take a page out of Voltaire's book and let him disagree with you, and vice versa.

I didn't go through this thread with a fine-tooth comb, but I didn't see him insisting that you're miserable and have attitude problems.

1) I was getting tired and irritable last night, and I didn't censor my emotions as much as I should have. That's all I'll apologize for.
2) He'd have a pretty hard time making the reverse argument true. Have a look at the bulk of my posts and compare them to his. I lash out at him because he's like that to just about every single member he interacts with on every single thread on which he posts. I get really tired of seeing him around here, constantly fighting with everybody in his condescending "you're all just ignorant sheep" outlook; it goes well beyond the handful of posts he's made on this thread. Can't he just go over to RatzSkep and gripe about everything and everyone over there?

Sandinista - I'm happy to deal with opinions other than my own, smartass. You, however, get in everyone's faces about any subject you talk about - even when it's become glaringly obvious that you're completely ignorant about it. Don't act like you're the polite one here. We all know that's not true - I'm just finally saying something about it. If I'm being impolite in doing so... get fucked.

[Eriku]

Spoil your memory??? You have to be joking...why the fuck would you give a shit what I have to say?

I don't. So, why bother staying on my case and being such a cynic about the whole thing?
What I'm saying is, you've got some real attitude problems.

sandinista has every right to raise a few questions regarding what this rally actually was. Take a page out of Voltaire's book and let him disagree with you, and vice versa.

I didn't go through this thread with a fine-tooth comb, but I didn't see him insisting that you're miserable and have attitude problems.

1) I was getting tired and irritable last night, and I didn't censor my emotions as much as I should have. That's all I'll apologize for.
2) He'd have a pretty hard time making the reverse argument true. Have a look at the bulk of my posts and compare them to his. I lash out at him because he's like that to just about every single member he interacts with on every single thread on which he posts. I get really tired of seeing him around here, constantly fighting with everybody in his condescending "you're all just ignorant sheep" outlook; it goes well beyond the handful of posts he's made on this thread. Can't he just go over to RatzSkep and gripe about everything and everyone over there?

Sandinista - I'm happy to deal with opinions other than my own, smartass. You, however, get in everyone's faces about any subject you talk about - even when it's become glaringly obvious that you're completely ignorant about it. Don't act like you're the polite one here. We all know that's not true - I'm just finally saying something about it. If I'm being impolite in doing so... get fucked.

Heheeh... in other threads where I've been inclined towards sandinista's side of the argument I've had a fair few people on here come at me like I'm an idiot, so it's hardly just sandinista who's hard to swallow in topics like these.

Anyway, fair enough... I've said my piece.

[Twoflower]

Just a friendly reminder to everyone to play nice and attack the argument not the person!

[sandinista]

Spoil your memory??? You have to be joking...why the fuck would you give a shit what I have to say?

I don't. So, why bother staying on my case and being such a cynic about the whole thing?
What I'm saying is, you've got some real attitude problems.

sandinista has every right to raise a few questions regarding what this rally actually was. Take a page out of Voltaire's book and let him disagree with you, and vice versa.

I didn't go through this thread with a fine-tooth comb, but I didn't see him insisting that you're miserable and have attitude problems.

1) I was getting tired and irritable last night, and I didn't censor my emotions as much as I should have. That's all I'll apologize for.
2) He'd have a pretty hard time making the reverse argument true. Have a look at the bulk of my posts and compare them to his. I lash out at him because he's like that to just about every single member he interacts with on every single thread on which he posts. I get really tired of seeing him around here, constantly fighting with everybody in his condescending "you're all just ignorant sheep" outlook; it goes well beyond the handful of posts he's made on this thread. Can't he just go over to RatzSkep and gripe about everything and everyone over there?

Sandinista - I'm happy to deal with opinions other than my own, smartass. You, however, get in everyone's faces about any subject you talk about - even when it's become glaringly obvious that you're completely ignorant about it. Don't act like you're the polite one here. We all know that's not true - I'm just finally saying something about it. If I'm being impolite in doing so... get fucked.

Yah, I have insulted every member on this board, bullshit. Your just talking shit because you got called out on your childish behavior. "Ohhh can't the meanie with differing viewpoints please go away.. ." don't read my posts if they bother your sensitive self so much, fucking grow up.

[Ian]

Fair enough indeed, Eriku. I'm going to resolve to stay away from the politics forums a lot more, if only to stay away from angry people like Sandinista a lot more. Yes - you have insulted and condescended to just about everyone who dares call you out on your outlandish points of view. So I'm suddenly being sensitive and childish, huh? That's a pathetic distortion - some people have opposing viewpoints, but you frequently make it a point to belittle your challengers' views with vitriol and charges of ignorance and being brainwashed. You think I'm getting on your case 'cause I'm thin skinned? WRONG - IT'S BECAUSE I'M SICK OF SEING YOUR BILE AROUND THIS FORUM, even when I'm not interacting with you.

Once upon a time I thought I might like to be a cop. Then I realized that I'd be dealing with angry, trashy people every day. And that would make me angry in turn, having them always in my face. I don't like angry people. So I'm getting away from the politics forum for a while.