Can Chavez get any more mental?

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Coito ergo sum
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Re: Can Chavez get any more mental?

Post by Coito ergo sum » Tue Nov 02, 2010 1:01 pm

mistermack wrote:Chavez was faced with a media that was all one way.
Not even close. He was faced with SOME media that would not toe the party line. He had PLENTY of media on his side, including wholly government controlled media. Where do you get this?
mistermack wrote: He wasn't acting against a free press.
Yes he was. He shut down privately owned press for not saying what he wanted them to say.
mistermack wrote:
I don't blame him one bit for trying to redress the balance.
That's not what he did. He shut up the opposition.
mistermack wrote:
As far as the rest of the world goes, I stick to my original suggestion.
'Suggestion?

Please - you're criticism is that only the "rich" have media companies here in the US. Well where in the hell do the poor have media outlets? The alternative you propose is to just put it in control of the government - the very entity that the media is, in part, there to serve as a watch dog!
mistermack wrote: Most countries have independent legal systems. I would extend that, and have an independent tribunal that could hand out very stiff penalties for media bias, with specially high penalties for blatant bending of the truth.
We have a legal system for protecting the public from commercial fraud, where someone gets ripped off. We have private lawsuits, State consumer protection agencies and attorneys general, and federal trade commission, federal communications commission, now a federal consumer protection agency, etc.

You're going to create a governing tribunal to police "the truth" when it comes to political views and opinions? Are you serious? You can't possibly not see the problem with that...

"We can never be sure that the opinion we are endeavoring to stifle is a false opinion; and if we were sure, stifling it would be an evil still." ~John Stuart Mill, On Liberty, 1859.

The peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it. If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth: if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error. ~John Stuart Mill, On Liberty, 1859
mistermack wrote:
Not a perfect solution, nothing ever is, but better than what's there now.
Better than "people say what they want?" Really? So...you'd rather have every person that wants to write something on a political issue subject to being hauled before your tribunal to prove the "truth" of his or her assertion? That's what you think is "better?"
mistermack wrote: It might make proprietors concentrate on making money, instead of trying to influence the next election.
The last time I checked, it is the right of every citizen to try to influence elections. That's what elections are for!
mistermack wrote:
It would make TV companies and Newspapers less attractive to buy for politically motivated billionaires..
.
It would make people afraid to express any view that is "controversial" because if they are accused of "bending the truth" then they would be subjected to legal costs of defending themselves, even if they win. It would be a police force governing orthodox and non-orthodox statements, and criminalizing political blasphemy.

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Re: Can Chavez get any more mental?

Post by mistermack » Tue Nov 02, 2010 1:53 pm

Coito, you're tap-dancing round the truth, you seem to be getting dizzy. Perhaps this is what you don't like :
Wikipedia wrote: According to The Washington Post, citing statistics from the United Nations, poverty in Venezuela stood at 28% in 2008,[66] down from 55.44% in 1998 before Chávez got into office.[67] Economist Mark Weisbrot found that, "During the ... economic expansion, the poverty rate [was] cut by more than half, from 54 percent of households in the first half of 2003 to 26 percent at the end of 2008. Extreme poverty has fallen even more, by 72 percent. These poverty rates measure only cash income, and does take into account increased access to health care or education."[53][68]
I suppose the US looks on all that as money that should have been invested in the US by a crooked elite, as with Saudi and Kuwait.
No wonder they're disappointed.
Coito ergo sum wrote: Not even close. He was faced with SOME media that would not toe the party line. He had PLENTY of media on his side, including wholly government controlled media. Where do you get this?
You don't have to look far :
Wikipedia wrote: In the days before the 11 April 2002 coup, the five main private Venezuelan TV stations gave advertising space to those calling for anti-Chávez demonstrations.[106][107] In 2006, Chávez announced that the terrestrial broadcast license for RCTV would not be renewed, due to its refusal to pay taxes and fines, and its alleged open support of the 2002 coup attempt against Chávez, and role in helping to instigate the oil strike in 2002–2003.[108] RCTV was transmitted via cable and satellite and was widely viewable in Venezuela until January 2010, when it was excluded by cable companies in response to an order of National Commission of Telecommunications.[109][110][111] The failure to renew its terrestrial broadcast license had been condemned by a multitude of international organizations, many of whom have claimed that the closure was politically motivated, and was intended to silence government critics.[112][113][114][115]

Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting (FAIR) questioned whether, in the event a television station openly supported and collaborated with coup leaders, the station in question would not be subject to even more serious consequences in the United States or any other Western nation.[116
In fact, it took four years of non-payment of taxes and fines, levied by an independent judiciary, before RCTV was taken off the air, even though it was complicit in the coup attempt.
Coito, like the vast majority of americans, you just see what you want to see, so I don't expect any of that to stick in your head
.
While there is a market for shit, there will be assholes to supply it.

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Re: Can Chavez get any more mental?

Post by Coito ergo sum » Tue Nov 02, 2010 2:47 pm

mistermack wrote:Coito, you're tap-dancing round the truth, you seem to be getting dizzy.

.
The only one with a problem with the truth is you. You choose to believe Chavez's propaganda.

From the same "wikipedia" article you quoted: "The failure to renew its terrestrial broadcast license had been condemned by a multitude of international organizations, many of whom have claimed that the closure was politically motivated, and was intended to silence government critics." The "multitude" of international organizations on the one hand - Chavez's bullshit on the other.

Also from wikipedia:
Concerns about freedom of the press in Venezuela have been raised by Human Rights Watch,[15][16] Amnesty International,[17] the Inter American Press Association,[18] the International Press Institute,[19] the United States Department of State,[20] Reporters without Borders,[21][22] representatives of the Catholic Church, the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights, and others.[23][24][25][26][27]
And, about the political prisoners.....
Human rights and legal policy groups say that there are more than 40 political prisoners in Venezuela, and that 2,000 Chávez opponents are under investigation.[40] Venezuela's political opposition complains that the justice system is controlled by the government and is used as a political instrument against Chavez' opponents.[41] The opposition cites corruption charges filed against a variety of opposition figures, including opposition leader Manuel Rosales, former Defense Minister Raul Baduel, and former Governors Eduardo Manuitt and Didalco Bolivar.[42]
The opposition also claims that government of Hugo Chávez is targeting university students. Some have been jailed under charges of “destabilizing the government,” or “inciting civil war.” Students have launched hunger strikes over the government's treatment of alleged political prisoners.[43]
Amnesty International reports about 6,000 "extrajudicial killings" by the State between 2000 and 2007. Amnesty International, 2009 Annual Report: Venezuela

The European Parliament passed a February 2010 resolution[100] expressing "concern about the movement toward authoritarianism" by Chavez.[101] ^ European Parliament (11 February 2010). "Human rights: Venezuela, Madagascar, Burma". Press release. Retrieved 24 February 2010.
^ "European Parliament OKs resolutions". UPI.com. 12 February 2010. Retrieved 24 February 2010. "The members expressed concern about the movement toward authoritarianism by Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez's government, the European Union said Thursday in a release. In January 2010, six cable and satellite television channels were ordered off the air after they were criticized for failing to broadcast Chavez's speech on the 52nd anniversary of the overthrow of Perez Jimenez."

Here's what Human Rights Watch had to say:
Venezuela: Media Law Undercuts Freedom of Expression
NOVEMBER 23, 2004
RELATED MATERIALS:
Venezuela: Limit State Control of Media
This legislation severely threatens press freedom in Venezuela.

José Miguel Vivanco, Americas director at Human Rights Watch
A draft law to increase state control of television and radio broadcasting in Venezuela threatens to undermine the media’s freedom of expression, Human Rights Watch said today. Venezuela’s National Assembly, which has been voting article by article on the law, known as the Law of Social Responsibility in Radio and Television, is expected to approve it today.

“This legislation severely threatens press freedom in Venezuela,” said José Miguel Vivanco, Americas director at Human Rights Watch. “Its vaguely worded restrictions and heavy penalties are a recipe for self-censorship by the press and arbitrariness by government authorities.”

Human Rights Watch is concerned that the proposed law contains loosely worded rules on incitement of breaches of public order that could penalize broadcasters’ legitimate expression of political views. If found responsible for the infractions, a television or radio station could be ordered to suspend transmissions for up to 72 hours, and have its broadcasting license revoked on a second offense.
http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2004/11/23/v ... expression
Venezuela: End Prosecutions of Dissenters
Arrests for Criticizing the Government Undermines Democracy

MARCH 25, 2010

President of TV station Globovisión Guillermo Zuloaga attends a news conference in Caracas on November 18, 2009.
RELATED MATERIALS:
Venezuela: Curbs on Free Expression Tightened
Venezuela: Media Law Undercuts Freedom of Expression
For years, Chávez has been pushing legislation to restrict free speech. Now we seem to be entering a darker period in which he is enforcing these draconian laws.

José Miguel Vivanco, Americas director at Human Rights Watch
(Washington, DC) – The arrest of two prominent critics in retaliation for public statements that were critical of the government is a serious blow to freedom of expression in Venezuela, Human Rights Watch said today.

“To prosecute someone for speech, which should be protected under any standard of democracy, is a dangerous precedent,” said José Miguel Vivanco, Americas director at Human Rights Watch. “The violations of free speech are likely to be compounded by a trial that falls far short of due process protections, given the government’s political takeover of the Supreme Court.”
http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2010/03/25/v ... dissenters
Venezuela: Close Chavez’s New Censorship Office
Stop Prosecuting and Harassing Critics and Restricting Flow of Information

JULY 21, 2010

An demonstrator holding a sign that reads "No to censorship. Freedom", takes part in a demonstration during Journalist Day in Caracas on June 27, 2009.
© 2009 Reuters
RELATED MATERIALS:
Venezuela: Stop Attacks on Judicial Independence
Venezuela: End Prosecutions of Dissenters
Venezuela: Stop Abusing Broadcast Powers
Chávez has created a new tool for controlling public debate in Venezuela. The new decree would allow the president to block the discussion of topics that are inconvenient for his government, blatantly violating the rights of expression and to information, which are at the heart of a democratic society.

José Miguel Vivanco, Americas director at Human Rights Watch
(Washington, DC) - Venezuela should close a recently created office that grants the Chávez administration broad powers to limit public debate, Human Rights Watch said today. The government should also stop seeking to discredit human rights defenders and prosecuting critics.
http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2010/07/21/v ... hip-office
Venezuela violates human rights, OAS commission reports
HUMAN RIGHTS

February 24, 2010


The Inter-American Commission on Human Rights criticizes Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez for abuses.
Venezuela routinely violates human rights, often intimidating or punishing citizens based on their political beliefs, an Organization of American States commission said in a report released Wednesday.

The 319-page report by the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights says a lack of independence by Venezuela's judiciary and legislature in their dealings with leftist President Hugo Chavez often leads to the abuses.
and the Chavez
government represses political opponents and the expression of free ideas by jailing critics on trumped-up charges or pulling licenses for TV and radio stations and shutting down newspapers.
and
The OAS commission's report also notes "the existence of a pattern of impunity in cases of violence, which particularly affects media workers, human rights defenders, trade unionists, participants in public demonstrations, people held in custody, 'campesinos' (small-scale and subsistence farmers), indigenous people, and women."
http://articles.cnn.com/2010-02-24/worl ... s=PM:WORLD


So, you suggest that I'm just an American, and therefore I'll just believe whatever, right? However, you are the one swallowing what Chavez feeds you whole and uncritically. I'm the one basing my view on a variety of sources, including Amnesty International, the European Parliament, Reporters without Borders, Human Rights Watch, various international press organizations, the Inter American Council on Human Rights..... and many others...

Please save your fucking condescension and snarky smugness for someone else. It's obvious your political agenda causes you to not be able to see the truth.

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Re: Can Chavez get any more mental?

Post by Warren Dew » Tue Nov 02, 2010 4:01 pm

mistermack wrote:
Wikipedia wrote: According to The Washington Post, citing statistics from the United Nations, poverty in Venezuela stood at 28% in 2008,[66] down from 55.44% in 1998 before Chávez got into office.[67] Economist Mark Weisbrot found that, "During the ... economic expansion, the poverty rate [was] cut by more than half, from 54 percent of households in the first half of 2003 to 26 percent at the end of 2008. Extreme poverty has fallen even more, by 72 percent. These poverty rates measure only cash income, and does take into account increased access to health care or education."[53][68]
I suppose the US looks on all that as money that should have been invested in the US by a crooked elite, as with Saudi and Kuwait.
You mean the same Kuwait that has a 0% poverty rate? Chalk up another point against Chavez.

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Re: Can Chavez get any more mental?

Post by Animavore » Tue Nov 02, 2010 4:03 pm

I don't get this Chavez hatred. The guy's a legend.
And I don't know where you're getting he's a dictator from either. He was voted into power.
Libertarianism: The belief that out of all the terrible things governments can do, helping people is the absolute worst.

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Re: Can Chavez get any more mental?

Post by Clinton Huxley » Tue Nov 02, 2010 4:06 pm

Never mind Chavez, it's Berlusconi you need to keep your eyes on...
"I grow old … I grow old …
I shall wear the bottoms of my trousers rolled"

AND MERRY XMAS TO ONE AND All!

Imagehttp://25kv.co.uk/date_counter.php?date ... 20counting!!![/img-sig]

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Re: Can Chavez get any more mental?

Post by Coito ergo sum » Tue Nov 02, 2010 4:20 pm

Clinton Huxley wrote:Never mind Chavez, it's Berlusconi you need to keep your eyes on...
"When I'm in the presence of a beautiful girl, I look at her. It is better to have a passion for beautiful girls than to be gay," Berlusconi said. :funny:

Read more: Better to be fond of beautiful girls than to be gay: Berlusconi - The Times of India http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/worl ... z148tn6WhH

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Re: Can Chavez get any more mental?

Post by Clinton Huxley » Tue Nov 02, 2010 5:04 pm

Berlusconi - Blair's best mate. Tells you all you need to know about both of them

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Re: Can Chavez get any more mental?

Post by sandinista » Tue Nov 02, 2010 6:32 pm

Animavore wrote:I don't get this Chavez hatred. The guy's a legend.
And I don't know where you're getting he's a dictator from either. He was voted into power.
The only "hatred" is from americans who get bombarded with anti-Chavez propaganda on US mainstream media. They are still scared of "communists" and of other countries not bowing down to them. They don't like the thought of not being in control of another countries leaders. Even worse, Chavez has many allies in South and Central America which means even less US control on the region.
Our struggle is not against actual corrupt individuals, but against those in power in general, against their authority, against the global order and the ideological mystification which sustains it.

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Re: Can Chavez get any more mental?

Post by Animavore » Tue Nov 02, 2010 6:35 pm

sandinista wrote:
Animavore wrote:I don't get this Chavez hatred. The guy's a legend.
And I don't know where you're getting he's a dictator from either. He was voted into power.
The only "hatred" is from americans who get bombarded with anti-Chavez propaganda on US mainstream media. They are still scared of "communists" and of other countries not bowing down to them. They don't like the thought of not being in control of another countries leaders. Even worse, Chavez has many allies in South and Central America which means even less US control on the region.
Have you ever seen this documentary?
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 9629840148#
About America's meddling in South America over the last 70 years. It's really good.
Libertarianism: The belief that out of all the terrible things governments can do, helping people is the absolute worst.

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Re: Can Chavez get any more mental?

Post by sandinista » Tue Nov 02, 2010 6:44 pm

Animavore wrote:
sandinista wrote:
Animavore wrote:I don't get this Chavez hatred. The guy's a legend.
And I don't know where you're getting he's a dictator from either. He was voted into power.
The only "hatred" is from americans who get bombarded with anti-Chavez propaganda on US mainstream media. They are still scared of "communists" and of other countries not bowing down to them. They don't like the thought of not being in control of another countries leaders. Even worse, Chavez has many allies in South and Central America which means even less US control on the region.
Have you ever seen this documentary?
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 9629840148#
About America's meddling in South America over the last 70 years. It's really good.
Yes I have, great link, Pilger is excellent.
Our struggle is not against actual corrupt individuals, but against those in power in general, against their authority, against the global order and the ideological mystification which sustains it.

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Re: Can Chavez get any more mental?

Post by Coito ergo sum » Tue Nov 02, 2010 6:55 pm

sandinista wrote:
Animavore wrote:I don't get this Chavez hatred. The guy's a legend.
And I don't know where you're getting he's a dictator from either. He was voted into power.
The only "hatred" is from americans who get bombarded with anti-Chavez propaganda on US mainstream media.
Actually, in the US there is nothing even close to a "bombardment" of news regarding Chavez or Venezuela. There is the occasional, yawn-inspiring, news report about some event or another in Venezuela, but very little information at all is on the "main stream media." The bulk of what the guy is up to is never reported in the American mainstream media. What I'm aware of I've found out through Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, Reporters Without Borders, and the InterAmerican Commission on Human Rights which recently issued a 319 page report on Venezuela providing a lot of detail (none of which made it into the "mainstream media), and other such sources. So, try again. And, please - stop it with the fucking "Americans don't get the real news" bullshit - we get more news than you fucking Canadians, so STFU. And, I've lived in Canada, so I know what I'm talking about - we have much more in the way of media options than you and your Bryan Adams laden bubblegum radio stations and your censorship boards provide.
sandinista wrote:
They are still scared of "communists" and of other countries not bowing down to them.
It has nothing to do with being fucking scared, unless your claiming that Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, Reporters Without Borders, and the InterAmerican Commission on Human Rights are "scared" of communists, and therefore trembling in their boots over Chavez. I live here. People aren't "scared" of Hugo fucking Chavez.
sandinista wrote:
They don't like the thought of not being in control of another countries leaders.
It's you that over-romanticize the US as some sort of power that CAN control other countries' leaders when it decides to wave its magic wand. Most of us down south of the Canadian border are pretty clear on the fact that our government has a limited ability to "control" another country's leaders - as can be seen by Chavez, Ahmadinejad, Castro, Jong Il, and about another 190 other leaders around the world. The US has economic influence, but by and large it doesn't "control" other countries. But, do keep up the conspiracy theories....the Bildeberg and the Trilateral Commission, in league with the Illuminati, secretly control the world anyway...
sandinista wrote:
Even worse, Chavez has many allies in South and Central America which means even less US control on the region.
The main thing that we're concerned about here is Russian and Chinese influence in the western hemisphere. Believe me, there is little fear of Venezuela per se. It's what Russia and China can use countries to our south for that is of diplomatic and political concern.

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Re: Can Chavez get any more mental?

Post by sandinista » Tue Nov 02, 2010 7:00 pm

:console:
Our struggle is not against actual corrupt individuals, but against those in power in general, against their authority, against the global order and the ideological mystification which sustains it.

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Re: Can Chavez get any more mental?

Post by Coito ergo sum » Tue Nov 02, 2010 7:40 pm

sandinista wrote::console:
No worries...I love a good rant. :biggrin:

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Re: Can Chavez get any more mental?

Post by sandinista » Tue Nov 02, 2010 8:08 pm

btw, I have NEVER claimed that canadian "news" is good for anything, its fucking awful, and, yes, our mainstream radio is among the worst in the uncivilized world.
Our struggle is not against actual corrupt individuals, but against those in power in general, against their authority, against the global order and the ideological mystification which sustains it.

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