Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

[Feck]

It's a registered Charity in the UK ,I think that might be revoked .

[DMac]

"In his 18-page complaint, Dawkins describes himself as "the world's best known and most respected atheist."" I keep on reading over this bit and giggling.

I dunno, he may be the worlds best known atheist for all i know

I can't think of anyone more well-known (pass on the 'respected' part). Who am I missing?

Billy Joel, Lance Armstrong, Angelina Jolie, Bruce Willis, Keanu Reeves...etc. etc.

[DMac]

It's a registered Charity in the UK ,I think that might be revoked .

Certainly should be, it's obviously been completely mismanaged. I wonder if there are any UK laws that might come down on Dawkins himself--apparently there was no written contract towards Timonen; apparently no or incompetent accounting over many years. Certainly thousands of contributers/buyers of shirts were frauded. I don't see why Timonen should be the only one responsible here, legally (or morally or logically).

[laklak]

Cheese substitute? Poor babies. Ok, here's the deal, if anyone makes it to the North Carolina mountains, I'll stand you a bacon cheeseburger. Howzat, eh? I'd buy you a pint, but this is a dry county. You'll have to make do with moonshine.

[Robert_S]

I'm sure Dawkins feels some moral responsibility, his mistake was not making a distinction between personal trust and business trust.

There are plenty of people I would trust with my life, or even my money that I wouldn't trust with money that I've been trusted with. It's best to keep that chain as short as possible. If I give X some money to take to the bank, then it's pretty irresponsible for X to give it to Y to take there unless I give consent. I'm placing my trust in X's honesty, not his judge of other people's characters.

[Calilasseia]

Well, at least it was marginally easier reading this thread than the RatSkep one ... fuck me, that one's heading towards 150 pages at a rate of knots ...

[Trolldor]

Dawkins tried to get a regular stream of income for a not-for-profit organisation by setting up an online store through a secondary company by a man who looks like a sex offender.

Anyone else surprised by what happened?

[Feck]

It's a registered Charity in the UK ,I think that might be revoked .

Certainly should be, it's obviously been completely mismanaged. I wonder if there are any UK laws that might come down on Dawkins himself--apparently there was no written contract towards Timonen; apparently no or incompetent accounting over many years. Certainly thousands of contributers/buyers of shirts were frauded. I don't see why Timonen should be the only one responsible here, legally (or morally or logically).

Josh is not a trustee of the Charity, Richard is he(and the other trustees) have failed in all the responsibilities they are legally required to uphold .
The government should be very interested as they contribute an extra 28% to the charity when people make a Gift aid certificate .

[Calilasseia]

Oh, and speaking of the Charity Commissioners, I discovered recently that with respect to my Entomology Society, I am listed as a trustee thereof, which means that if anything goes shit shaped therein, I could find myself liable for a slice of whatever has gone missing. Which means I'm going to be paying a LOT more attention to that part of the AGM that deals with the accounts from now on. Even though it's unlikely that anyone is going to want to dip their hands in the till in an organisation that makes zero profit, is funded entirely from member subscriptions, and has total assets that are probably less than the loose change in Dawkins' pocket.

That tangential diversion aside, I've recently had reason to become acquainted with what the Charity Commissioners are like, and with our organisation, they have been ruthless of late. If we mis-handle the meticulous recording in the books of the purchase of a single postage stamp, we're likely to be given a hard smack across the chops. So this débacle should result in Dawkins having his arse cheeks well and truly stir-fried in fucking napalm.

[Bella Fortuna]

If anyone is interested/curious - Maureen Norton's blog: http://thebeautybutler.tumblr.com/

[DMac]

plus, they are demanding recovering "their" Richard attorney's legal fees. Aren't they? but then that's standard in every complaint, doesn't mean it will be granted.

The court will grant attorneys fees: (a) if a written agreement between the parties provides for it, or (b) there is a statute or court rule that provides for it in a given situation.

Here's the complaint: http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/uplo ... imonen.pdf

O.k. - here's the deal - it looks like Timonen first did some work for Dawkins personally. Then he was hired to work on web sites for RDF (UK and US). Then the issue of the store came up. Timonen was asked to set up the store, and paragraph 22 is interesting in that it says, "Timonen...agreed to use his personal corporation UBP to operate The Store for RDFRS’ benefit."

So, issue number 1 - we have no written contract regarding this, apparently. And, Timonen started The Store under the name of UBP, Timonen's own corporation. On the surface, Timonen could argue that UBP owns the Store. Dawkins alleges that there was an oral agreement for Timonen to use the Store for the benefit of RDF. In paragraph 23, Dawkins states that Timonen was "already being adequately compensated" for the personal and RDF website work, and would get nothing more for doing the additional work relative to the Store. Hmmm....that, to me, opens up the door for Timonen to say something to the effect of, "See! With all the mountains of work involved in building The Store, I would never have agreed to do it without compensation over and above what I was already doing." Dawkins anticipates that allegation by Timonen, and Dawkins stresses in the complaint that Timonen is already being paid "generously" and far more than a mere 24-25 year old should get.

[snip for brevity]

Very interesting stuff. Also makes it more likely that Timonen's expensive lawyers may have taken the case because they smell a countersuit (?)

What a stinking mess. Even makes it hard to root for anyone involved in it, since they all seem to be (from this and past actions), jerks and/or incompetents. I think I'll root for the lawyers and the charity overseeing commissions. A class-action suit from people who bought items from "The Store" expecting all proceeds will go to RDF would be nice too.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

"In his 18-page complaint, Dawkins describes himself as "the world's best known and most respected atheist."" I keep on reading over this bit and giggling.

I dunno, he may be the worlds best known atheist for all i know

I can't think of anyone more well-known (pass on the 'respected' part). Who am I missing?

Billy Joel, Lance Armstrong, Angelina Jolie, Bruce Willis, Keanu Reeves...etc. etc.

Adam Savage, Jamie Hyneman.

[leo-rcc]

Pretty much every celebrity with more than half a brain.

[Meekychuppet]

It's a registered Charity in the UK ,I think that might be revoked .

Certainly should be, it's obviously been completely mismanaged. I wonder if there are any UK laws that might come down on Dawkins himself--apparently there was no written contract towards Timonen; apparently no or incompetent accounting over many years. Certainly thousands of contributers/buyers of shirts were frauded. I don't see why Timonen should be the only one responsible here, legally (or morally or logically).

You're kidding yourself. This will go largely unpunished.

The Ratskep thread has been culled down to 81 pages. Reminds me why I don't go there. They deleted the video too.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

The Ratskep thread has been culled down to 81 pages. Reminds me why I don't go there. They deleted the video too.

Fuckin' Feather-dust Squad. Admino-fascists!