Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

Post by Blondie » Mon Oct 25, 2010 6:59 pm

kiki5711 wrote:
For an individual defendant in an intellectual property defense, I would bet that firm would take $50,000 up front.
Which probably covers "Answering the Complaint". All the hours of work after that could pile up quite high. Why would Josh want to spend everything he has? And I don't think his so called girl friend is too happy about spending it on legal fees if they're as innocent as they claim.
I believe that, if they win, they can file a counter-suit for damages and defamation, and RDF/Dawkins will have to pay for all costs Josh and Womanfriend incurred in defending themselves + whatever penalty the court decides is suitable the defamation/slander etc. A good firm can do all that for you. :smoke:
Last edited by Blondie on Mon Oct 25, 2010 7:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

Post by Blondie » Mon Oct 25, 2010 7:07 pm

I knew Dawkins didn't right that complaint.. duh! :smug:
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

Post by klr » Mon Oct 25, 2010 7:21 pm

As clear and to the point as can be, given the need to say as little as possible. :coffee:
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

Post by Coito ergo sum » Mon Oct 25, 2010 7:23 pm

kiki5711 wrote:plus, they are demanding recovering "their" Richard attorney's legal fees. Aren't they? but then that's standard in every complaint, doesn't mean it will be granted.
The court will grant attorneys fees: (a) if a written agreement between the parties provides for it, or (b) there is a statute or court rule that provides for it in a given situation.

Here's the complaint: http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/uplo ... imonen.pdf

O.k. - here's the deal - it looks like Timonen first did some work for Dawkins personally. Then he was hired to work on web sites for RDF (UK and US). Then the issue of the store came up. Timonen was asked to set up the store, and paragraph 22 is interesting in that it says, "Timonen...agreed to use his personal corporation UBP to operate The Store for RDFRS’ benefit."

So, issue number 1 - we have no written contract regarding this, apparently. And, Timonen started The Store under the name of UBP, Timonen's own corporation. On the surface, Timonen could argue that UBP owns the Store. Dawkins alleges that there was an oral agreement for Timonen to use the Store for the benefit of RDF. In paragraph 23, Dawkins states that Timonen was "already being adequately compensated" for the personal and RDF website work, and would get nothing more for doing the additional work relative to the Store. Hmmm....that, to me, opens up the door for Timonen to say something to the effect of, "See! With all the mountains of work involved in building The Store, I would never have agreed to do it without compensation over and above what I was already doing." Dawkins anticipates that allegation by Timonen, and Dawkins stresses in the complaint that Timonen is already being paid "generously" and far more than a mere 24-25 year old should get.

Question: why would Dawkins need Timonen to run "The Store" under the name of UBP, a company owned by Timonen? Why wouldn't Dawkins just have a new corporation called "The Dawk-Store, Inc." formed? It makes no real sense to just have Timonen put everything in his company's name.

Paragraph 25 is puzzling. Dawkins' says that Timonen and Norton cried him and RDF a river about all the hard work that Norton was doing in relation to the Store, and that she really needed money, but had been working for free. Dawkins then states that he and RDF were so touched by Norton's efforts that they gave her $10,000. But, it wasn't for the efforts at the Store, it was for "as thanks for her efforts in connection with an RDFRS fund-raising event held in Menlo Park, California in 2009." Query: so, was it for her work at the Store? Or, was it for the fund-raising event?

Paragraph 28 looks a little bit odd: "UBP made a single $30,000 “donation” of “profit” from The Store to RDFRS in January
2008." - Note the year - 2 years ago. It's UBP - owned by Timonen - and they openly gave a $30,000 DONATION. If this Store is really part of or operating "for the benefit of" RDF, then why isn't RDF asking for the books? Balance sheet? Etc. They know about the $30,000 "donation" and they accept it. Arguably, that's a separate company, UBP, giving a donation to RDF.

Note - there is no recitation of the terms of any agreement between UBP and Dawkins/RDF. How much of profit was to go to RDF? How much would go back into UBP for expansion, development, salaries, etc.? How much work is involved? Did Timonen pay himself a salary and Norton a salary out of UBP? That wouldn't be, on the surface, abnormal, since UBP is his company. Timonen has to keep the company in good standing, file annual reports with California, maintain a sales tax permit, handle sales, bookkeeping, inventory, shipping, receiving, all that sort of thing.

So - is the issue here going to be whether Timonen rightfully took a salary from UBP, and rightfully incurred various other expenses through UBP?

In paragraph 28, RDF complains about not having received any books, records, p&l statements, etc. regarding UBP. Well, if it was Timonen's corporation you wouldn't EXPECT him to give RDF that information anymore than RDF would be entitled to any other separate corporation's books/records/bookkeeping. And, if RDF expected this information, then why didn't they remind Timonen of that expectation 1 and 2 years ago, with an email or letter stating, "we are not in receipt of your annual books/records/financial data".....?

In paragraph 29, RDF now wants to take over the Store because the "legal impediments preventing it from operating the Store directly had been removed." They ask for financial data - Timonen gives it up. The data reveals the improprieties, or what RDF says are improprieties. It doesn't look like Timonen was covering anything up, though, which one would expect him to do if he thought he was up to no good.

Paragraph 30-31 delineates the "embezzled" funds - which are essentially business expenses of UBP, which RDF characterizes as "improper." There appear to be dinners, supermarket bills, salaries to Timonen and Norton, and an unkown amount categorized CSL which which are "officer salaries" and "wages." There's a $29,000 payment, for example, to Ms. Norton's teenage son Graham - but, one can imagine that Timonen and Norton will be able to characterize that as payment for services rendered. Maybe they needed Graham for data entry and other office work....

The bottom line is that the $375,000 that in the news article was called "embezzled funds" are arguably UBP business expenses. RDF claims that these expenses should never have been incurred because Timonen verbally agreed to operate his own company, UBP, for the benefit of RDF, without a dime additional compensation over what he was being paid for doing work for Dawkins and RDF directly, AND RDF is claiming to have never received (or sought) to monitor or examine the books/records of UBP or to be concerned about how it was being operated prior to the shit hitting the fan this year. They claim, apparently, that they did not do that sort of thing because Timonen lied to them and said the Store was not profitable....they aren't very clear about when/where these representations are made, and an objective observer might wonder why RDF just took Timonen's word for it.

Paragraph 33 and 34 are very important - RDF says that Timonen's lawyer claimed that Timonen owns the intellectual property rights (copyright and trademark) in what he created. Dawkins says that it was all a "work for hire." The thing is, the Devil in this case is in the details. Does Timonen own it? Well, you ever get a picture taken by a photographer and they hand you the picture, but you can't make copies of it (legally) because the photographer owns the copyright? Well, it's a lot like that - Timonen says "I created this stuff and its mine," I never released it to RDF. RDF says, yes you did.

Where is the written assignment of intellectual property rights?

Paragraphs 35-40 detail some video that Timonen wanted to create with Nate Phelps. RDF says that Timonen approached RDF "for financing," and that while RDF was mulling it over RDF gave them $15,000 to finance some footage that would be lost. No promise for additional financing was given. RDF now wants that $15,000 back, and claims it was a "work for hire." I don't immediately see their claim here, though. Timonen could seek "financing" without it being a "work for hire" - maybe he just asked for a loan? Where is the written assignment agreement indicating it is a "work for hire?"

Now - the legal theories:

Count One and Two - RDF and Dawk say that Timonen breached VERBAL contract with RDF. That's count one - top of the list - breach of a verbal contract. That contract? Timonen was to use his own company, UBP, to create and run an online store (The Store) all for the benefit of RDF. Timonen was to receive no compensation for doing all of that except what he was already being paid for doing the other things for RDF. There is a consideration issue there. We have an oral contract for Timonen, arguably, to do a large amount of work for no consideration over what he was already being paid for.

Count Three - Breach of Convenant of Good Faith and Fair Dealing - California has an implied covenant in every contract to act in good faith and not prevent the other side from receiving the benefit of the contract. One - there has to actually be a contract first, Two - RDF needs to prove how they were deprived the benefit of the contract. No contract terms are spelled out as to how much money RDF was to get, and the bad faith lies in Timonen and Norton taking salaries and spending money on what RDF considers excessive or non-business related expenses. That sounds kind of thin, actually.

The Fourth Count is Breach of Fiduciary Duty, the Fifth is Fraud, and the Sixth is Embezzlement. These are all based on the same facts. I don't think Norton had a fiduciary duty, and it my gut tells me Timonen didn't either. He worked for UBP, which was not a 501c3 organization and was not part of RDF. I doubt they can prove he was a fiduciary. The fifth count, Fraud, has not been pled with particularity - we don't see specific allegations of false representations and including rough dates and who was present, etc.

The fraud count, IMHO, is what this case will end up hinging on. RDF needs to show that Timonen affirmatively represented various things on which RDF JUSTIFIABLY relied and thereby suffered these damages. They might be able to come up with some representations on the part of Timonen, but they will have a harder time proving "justifiable" reliance. I really think that the judge and most juries would think that RDF, had it been interested in how UBP was run, would have asked for financial data a year or two ago, and not waited until it found out that Timonen was taking a salary from UBP.

The sense I get from the timeline is that the real beef here is that RDF/Dawkins thought Timonen was working on The Store for free. Caught by surprised and seeing that Timonen had basically taken a second salary from UBP in additon to what Dawk and RDF were paying him for other things, Dawkins was like "OMG - WTF?" Then they flyspecked the books and found the other "expenses" like "whole foods" and fancy restaurants and stuff, and were like, "STFU - GTFO" and said, send it to yon lawyers and sue him.

I think Dawkins took one look at this and saw Timonen had, in his view, overreached and reaped a windfall that could have gone to RDF and got pissed off. I think Timonen was probably to some extent honestly believing that he was to run the store and that since he owned it, he could set it up the way he wanted, and that because of the large amount of work involved he could legitimately pay himself a salary out of it. I am sure their honest recollections of their mutual conversations are both honestly held, but markedly different.

The hurdle that I see for Dawkins here is that nothing is in writing, and Timonen does own UBP.
Last edited by Coito ergo sum on Mon Oct 25, 2010 7:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

Post by klr » Mon Oct 25, 2010 7:35 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote: ...

Question: why would Dawkins need Timonen to run "The Store" under the name of UBP, a company owned by Timonen? Why wouldn't Dawkins just have a new corporation called "The Dawk-Store, Inc." formed? It makes no real sense to just have Timonen put everything in his company's name.

...
My theory: Doing it this way would have freed RD from much of the tiresome detail and need for constant intervention. That suits his style, but it does not seem to have been a very good decision ...
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

Post by kiki5711 » Mon Oct 25, 2010 7:39 pm

If Richard has nothing in writing, verbal agreement is gonna be hard to convince. It'll be I said/he said and who knows what either of them actually said. What's curious to me is why didn't the foundation look into having everything that's part of the foundation activity, legally covered? a foundation must have someone overlooking the funds, don't they?

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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

Post by Meekychuppet » Mon Oct 25, 2010 7:40 pm

I disbelieve everything CES says, simply out of principle.
Rum wrote:Does it occur to you that you have subscribed to the model of maleness you seem to be pushing in order to justify your innately hostile and aggressive nature? I have noticed it often and even wondered if it might be some sort of personality disorder. You should consider this possibility.

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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

Post by kiki5711 » Mon Oct 25, 2010 7:41 pm

klr wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote: ...

Question: why would Dawkins need Timonen to run "The Store" under the name of UBP, a company owned by Timonen? Why wouldn't Dawkins just have a new corporation called "The Dawk-Store, Inc." formed? It makes no real sense to just have Timonen put everything in his company's name.

...
My theory: Doing it this way would have freed RD from much of the tiresome detail and need for constant intervention. That suits his style, but it does not seem to have been a very good decision ...
It's either Richard is extremely naive and gullible or something else beyond me, cause no one that I know would ever do business just on "word" alone. Especially if it's such a public business.

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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

Post by Meekychuppet » Mon Oct 25, 2010 7:43 pm

kiki5711 wrote:
klr wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote: ...

Question: why would Dawkins need Timonen to run "The Store" under the name of UBP, a company owned by Timonen? Why wouldn't Dawkins just have a new corporation called "The Dawk-Store, Inc." formed? It makes no real sense to just have Timonen put everything in his company's name.

...
My theory: Doing it this way would have freed RD from much of the tiresome detail and need for constant intervention. That suits his style, but it does not seem to have been a very good decision ...
It's either Richard is extremely naive and gullible or something else beyond me, cause no one that I know would ever do business just on "word" alone. Especially if it's such a public business.
It only proves what anyone in business knows, that no-one can be trusted. People like Dawkins are often easy to sink because they are too busy basking in their own grandeur. Bill Gates did it to Steve Jobs too. It's remarkable, but not unusual.
Rum wrote:Does it occur to you that you have subscribed to the model of maleness you seem to be pushing in order to justify your innately hostile and aggressive nature? I have noticed it often and even wondered if it might be some sort of personality disorder. You should consider this possibility.

Rum wrote:Did I leave out being a twat? (With ref to your sig)
Things Rum has diagnosed me with to date: "personality disorder", autism, Aspergers.
eRvin wrote:People can see what a fucking freak you are. Have you not noticed all the disparaging comments you get?
rum wrote:What a cunt you are. Truly.

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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

Post by Meekychuppet » Mon Oct 25, 2010 7:44 pm

Rum wrote:Does it occur to you that you have subscribed to the model of maleness you seem to be pushing in order to justify your innately hostile and aggressive nature? I have noticed it often and even wondered if it might be some sort of personality disorder. You should consider this possibility.

Rum wrote:Did I leave out being a twat? (With ref to your sig)
Things Rum has diagnosed me with to date: "personality disorder", autism, Aspergers.
eRvin wrote:People can see what a fucking freak you are. Have you not noticed all the disparaging comments you get?
rum wrote:What a cunt you are. Truly.

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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

Post by maiforpeace » Mon Oct 25, 2010 7:46 pm

kiki5711 wrote:If Richard has nothing in writing, verbal agreement is gonna be hard to convince. It'll be I said/he said and who knows what either of them actually said. What's curious to me is why didn't the foundation look into having everything that's part of the foundation activity, legally covered? a foundation must have someone overlooking the funds, don't they?
As CES points out, the store was being operated by Josh's business. He wouldn't be required to produce the books unless it was agreed upon in advance as part of a contract.

Clearly both the foundation was sloppy taking RD's word for everything, and RD was sloppy taking JT's word for everything. If the foundation had been doing their job properly, they would have asked for accounting of the store long before, or at least some contract requiring Josh to produce the books. But apparently the donations were coming in fast and plentiful, so they didn't pay much attention to the store.

Considering that charitable donations have gone down considerably in the past couple of years, it makes sense that they started paying more attention to the store lately.
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

Post by floppit » Mon Oct 25, 2010 7:50 pm

Seems it's all ok, no money taken from donations just the shop and what RD personally paid him. A scrap over business, the profit making machine and the man.

Theft stinks but I find the day to day sums ripped from truly vulnerable people like old parents having cash swiped by their ethically challenged offspring - I see that over and over again at work. Let the law settle it, I don't think there's much in the way of public interest involved. That's not to say I can't understand personal interest of those who had run ins with either side, just I don't have any!

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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

Post by Meekychuppet » Mon Oct 25, 2010 7:51 pm

maiforpeace wrote:
kiki5711 wrote:If Richard has nothing in writing, verbal agreement is gonna be hard to convince. It'll be I said/he said and who knows what either of them actually said. What's curious to me is why didn't the foundation look into having everything that's part of the foundation activity, legally covered? a foundation must have someone overlooking the funds, don't they?
As CES points out, the store was being operated by Josh's business. He wouldn't be required to produce the books unless it was agreed upon in advance as part of a contract.

Clearly both the foundation was sloppy taking RD's word for everything, and RD was sloppy taking JT's word for everything. If the foundation had been doing their job properly, they would have asked for accounting of the store long before, or at least some contract requiring Josh to produce the books. But apparently the donations were coming in fast and plentiful, so they didn't pay much attention to the store.

Considering that charitable donations have gone down considerably in the past couple of years, it makes sense that they started paying more attention to the store lately.
I think this is the point that irks most. TImonen is probably going to get away with it because it's poorly managed and whilst morally suspect, Dawkins will carry the can for bad practice. Timonen will never work again but he'll not take the fall, much to my chagrin.
Rum wrote:Does it occur to you that you have subscribed to the model of maleness you seem to be pushing in order to justify your innately hostile and aggressive nature? I have noticed it often and even wondered if it might be some sort of personality disorder. You should consider this possibility.

Rum wrote:Did I leave out being a twat? (With ref to your sig)
Things Rum has diagnosed me with to date: "personality disorder", autism, Aspergers.
eRvin wrote:People can see what a fucking freak you are. Have you not noticed all the disparaging comments you get?
rum wrote:What a cunt you are. Truly.

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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

Post by maiforpeace » Mon Oct 25, 2010 7:53 pm

Meekychuppet wrote:
maiforpeace wrote:
kiki5711 wrote:If Richard has nothing in writing, verbal agreement is gonna be hard to convince. It'll be I said/he said and who knows what either of them actually said. What's curious to me is why didn't the foundation look into having everything that's part of the foundation activity, legally covered? a foundation must have someone overlooking the funds, don't they?
As CES points out, the store was being operated by Josh's business. He wouldn't be required to produce the books unless it was agreed upon in advance as part of a contract.

Clearly both the foundation was sloppy taking RD's word for everything, and RD was sloppy taking JT's word for everything. If the foundation had been doing their job properly, they would have asked for accounting of the store long before, or at least some contract requiring Josh to produce the books. But apparently the donations were coming in fast and plentiful, so they didn't pay much attention to the store.

Considering that charitable donations have gone down considerably in the past couple of years, it makes sense that they started paying more attention to the store lately.
I think this is the point that irks most. TImonen is probably going to get away with it because it's poorly managed and whilst morally suspect, Dawkins will carry the can for bad practice. Timonen will never work again but he'll not take the fall, much to my chagrin.
Don't worry, he'll still suffer tremendously from this whole thing.
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

Post by Meekychuppet » Mon Oct 25, 2010 7:55 pm

maiforpeace wrote:
Meekychuppet wrote:
maiforpeace wrote:
kiki5711 wrote:If Richard has nothing in writing, verbal agreement is gonna be hard to convince. It'll be I said/he said and who knows what either of them actually said. What's curious to me is why didn't the foundation look into having everything that's part of the foundation activity, legally covered? a foundation must have someone overlooking the funds, don't they?
As CES points out, the store was being operated by Josh's business. He wouldn't be required to produce the books unless it was agreed upon in advance as part of a contract.

Clearly both the foundation was sloppy taking RD's word for everything, and RD was sloppy taking JT's word for everything. If the foundation had been doing their job properly, they would have asked for accounting of the store long before, or at least some contract requiring Josh to produce the books. But apparently the donations were coming in fast and plentiful, so they didn't pay much attention to the store.

Considering that charitable donations have gone down considerably in the past couple of years, it makes sense that they started paying more attention to the store lately.
I think this is the point that irks most. TImonen is probably going to get away with it because it's poorly managed and whilst morally suspect, Dawkins will carry the can for bad practice. Timonen will never work again but he'll not take the fall, much to my chagrin.
Don't worry, he'll still suffer tremendously from this whole thing.
No doubt, but I don't think anyone is going to have him for their pound of flesh. Like I said, I work in this game and it's much like the banking crisis in that there really should be better rules, but people are trusted to act morally. When they don't they can pass the buck and point out that there was no specific law against it.
Rum wrote:Does it occur to you that you have subscribed to the model of maleness you seem to be pushing in order to justify your innately hostile and aggressive nature? I have noticed it often and even wondered if it might be some sort of personality disorder. You should consider this possibility.

Rum wrote:Did I leave out being a twat? (With ref to your sig)
Things Rum has diagnosed me with to date: "personality disorder", autism, Aspergers.
eRvin wrote:People can see what a fucking freak you are. Have you not noticed all the disparaging comments you get?
rum wrote:What a cunt you are. Truly.

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