Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

[Ironclad]

PMSL

[Coito ergo sum]

What is the point of going through two court cases if you can attain your objective with one?

Civil cases and criminal cases can be tried separately here. OJ Simpson was found innocent in the criminal case and guilty in the civil case.

Look at what the foundation is seeking to achieve. The question remains: What is the point of going through two court cases if you can attain your objective with one?

Because they can't necessarily achieve their objective with the criminal process. They might, but not necessarily.

Precisely. It's also cheaper not to bother with it and take the civil court route. Success is more likely that way anyway.

It doesn't cost anything to report the matter to the police. Someone at RDF can just make copies of the data, highlight where there embezzlement occurred, pop a cover letter on it, and submit it to the FBI and the local authorities' white collar crime department. If they file a civil suit, they'll have to put together all that information anyway.

[Coito ergo sum]

In case you're wondering just what the quality of the legal representation Mr. Timonen has secured for himself is you may be interested to know that this is the same firm who has represented such clients as Time Warner, AIG, and AT&T Corporation amongst other 'illustrious', high-profile, names. One can't help but wonder where he found the money to pay for this kind of legal representation on a salary of £50,000 a year?

Do they think they'll get some publicity from this? why else would they represent Josh? He's not anyone famous, nor rich?

The guy was making almost $100,000 a year from RDF alone, and that likely wasn't his only income stream. Even if it was, there is the little matter of the $375,000 that RDF says he has. If he has it, he might have used some of that for the retainer fee. Plop a $50,000 retainer down on a big law firm, and they'll take your case. He apparently also had a house, and he has his girlfriend who had a house that she sold, and she too supposedly got money out of this, and she's a Defendant too.

[lordpasternack]

To be perfectly frank, I don't think Josh is all that interest in the truth prevailing - or at any rate it's "truth" as the word means in his vocabulary: That is, the versions of events that comply with what his ego prefers, and which he can possibly manage at least to convince someone, anyone of. Simply garnering sympathy seems to be more important to him than whether the sympathy is actually warranted, or procured honestly. And when pushed into a corner: delete, cover up, deflect blame, crocodile tears, poor, poor me…

It really is quite astonishing the number of ways you can cut through this situation and others involving Josh, and find yourself reading the word "EGO" in block capitals shot through the cross-sections.

[Bella Fortuna]

It really is quite astonishing the number of ways you can cut through this situation and others involving Josh, and find yourself reading the word "EGO" in block capitals shot through the cross-sections.

Very much so. This is the opinion I have of him from seeing his actions, my own brief experience, and hearing about others'.

[kiki5711]

he's a big, big bull shitter who successfuly manipulated Richard's trust in him.

[Coito ergo sum]

Because he gave them a hefty retainer?

A firm of that kind of prestige probably demands a retainer in the ballpark of half a million dollars at the least.

That would be excessive.

Where would he get this kind of money? The amount of damages claimed is not even that much. Unless there's potential to drag it out.

For an individual defendant in an intellectual property defense, I would bet that firm would take $50,000 up front.

[kiki5711]

For an individual defendant in an intellectual property defense, I would bet that firm would take $50,000 up front.

Which probably covers "Answering the Complaint". All the hours of work after that could pile up quite high. Why would Josh want to spend everything he has? And I don't think his so called girl friend is too happy about spending it on legal fees if they're as innocent as they claim.

[Coito ergo sum]

To be perfectly frank, I don't think Josh is all that interest in the truth prevailing -

Almost nobody who receives a civil complaint for nearly $1,000,000 in damages is solely concerned with the "truth" prevailing. Most folks are concerned with not being held liable for the money.

or at any rate it's "truth" as the word means in his vocabulary: That is, the versions of events that comply with what his ego prefers,

You'll find that is true of most people. I have no doubt that both Dawkins and Timonen are fully convinced of the justice of their positions, and would pass a lie detector test for the truth of their comments to date.

It really is quite astonishing the number of ways you can cut through this situation and others involving Josh, and find yourself reading the word "EGO" in block capitals shot through the cross-sections.

I am quite sure that both of the players in this drama have sizable egos.

[lordpasternack]

It really is quite astonishing the number of ways you can cut through this situation and others involving Josh, and find yourself reading the word "EGO" in block capitals shot through the cross-sections.

Very much so. This is the opinion I have of him from seeing his actions, my own brief experience, and hearing about others'.

And while I have to say I have deep sympathy for Richard having been strung along by this emotionally maladapted little stinker for so long, and for the blow to the solar plexus that this must have been to him - thank fuck he has been disillusioned now - better late than never…

I really do think Josh needs psychological help, mind. It's my only well of sympathy for him, and I think it's a form of sympathy he probably wouldn't like, since it probably doesn't sit well with his ego. Does anyone know if he was adopted or messed about as a kid? I could swear he has classic symptoms of Attachment Disorder - particularly a completely pathological inability to accept ownership for one's fuck-ups, and lying in the face of the obvious.

[Coito ergo sum]

For an individual defendant in an intellectual property defense, I would bet that firm would take $50,000 up front.

Which probably covers "Answering the Complaint".

Then he's hiring the wrong attorneys

All the hours of work after that could pile up quite high.

Very true. But, $250,000 is quite a lot. If the matter goes to trial, it should still come in under $100,000.

Why would Josh want to spend everything he has?

He may only need to spend $100,000 of the $375,000. But, he's on the hook for $1,000,000. If he doesn't higher a lawyer, he will lose.

And I don't think his so called girl friend is too happy about spending it on legal fees if they're as innocent as they claim.

They may not be innocent, but they still need to defend the case. No choice. Defend, or get whacked for $1,000,000.

[kiki5711]

plus, they are demanding recovering "their" Richard attorney's legal fees. Aren't they? but then that's standard in every complaint, doesn't mean it will be granted.

[floppit]

I agree with most of what Meeky said - now about the age of the earth in pages back!

Feel anger, sympathy, bemused, or that long germanish word meaning gloaty - fact remains this involves adults that would not count as 'vulnerable' in the larger scheme of things arguing over the whereabouts of money donated for the advancment of reason.

My sympathy begins and ends with those who donated in good faith. If RD gets personal flack, well that's what happens when you stick the whole hoopla under your own name - maybe you sell more books but it's not easy to pass blame.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Very often the police will themselves back off if you go ahead and file suit.

Yes, there can be simultaneous civil and criminal prosecutions, but very often the police do suggest that you wait. You don't have to listen to them, but if you don't then they can make the decision to back off.

You're making this up as you go along, again.

You obviously don't know what you're talking about. I do. It's common relative to business-related crimes.

I handled hundreds of suits while at State Farm. Had to do my professional reading to keep up with that. How about you?

[maiforpeace]

http://richarddawkins.net/discussions/5 ... enberg-esq