Germany rejects multiculturalism

[redunderthebed]

Um chinaski im sure there is xtians and other religious people who dont agree with those values do they have to fuck off?.In fact you'd find that pope ratz a kraut last time i checked would rail against such beliefs and has done so.

Anyway its a democracy which means people dont have to agree to shit if they so choose.It is one of the great lies perpetuated by the reich right that multiculturalism does not work it does maybe not perfectly but it does it just doesn't fit into many people of the right and populist right worldview.

The Turkish cultural group does not contribute to the German state, while taking advantage of the generous social service offered by the country. When I move to another country, I adapt to the lifestyle. I've worn a kilt and had balmoral topping on a burger. And I'm a fascist if I think that citizens should respect secular values?

So out of the millions of turkish immigrants none of them contributed anything?! .I mean it will take time for things to change i remember they interviewed mesut ozil a german football player of turkish descent when asking about playing against turkey in the football. He replied "I was born in germany grew up in germany and live in germany i'am german so there will be no conflict for me playing against turkey" so im no expert but if 2nd and 3rd generation germans of turkish descent are willing to proclaim themselves as german and play for Die Mannschaft then maybe your statement might not hold as much water as you think.

No i didn't say you are fascist for thinking that but in my book it is anti-democratic what we need is to state our case strongly to all people to convince them to whatever values a country professes to hold not just to expect people to drop all their beliefs upon crossing the german border or any border for that matter.

[Svartalf]

Most Turkish Guest workers stayed in Germany for many years, and frequently for decades, which created another problem: the legal status of children of Gastarbeiter that were born and raised in Germany. In dealing with that issue the Germans did not exactly cover themselves with glory, to say the least.

When I see the majur FUBAR that has been caused by our right-of-the-soil citizenship policy, and the major use of anchor babies by illegals, I can only look up to Germany's strict right-of-blood policies, especially when you see it has been used to send a helping hand to loong lost descendants of German groups like the Volga Germans (who, needless to say, had near completely russified in the course of 2 centuries)

[Hermit]

Most Turkish Guest workers stayed in Germany for many years, and frequently for decades, which created another problem: the legal status of children of Gastarbeiter that were born and raised in Germany. In dealing with that issue the Germans did not exactly cover themselves with glory, to say the least.

When I see the majur FUBAR that has been caused by our right-of-the-soil citizenship policy, and the major use of anchor babies by illegals, I can only look up to Germany's strict right-of-blood policies, especially when you see it has been used to send a helping hand to loong lost descendants of German groups like the Volga Germans (who, needless to say, had near completely russified in the course of 2 centuries)

That sounds a bit confused to me. What is the point of the right-of-blood policy when, as you say, the Volga Germans for example have almost completely assimilated with the Russians within and around them?

Conversely, what is wrong with the right-of-soil policy? As long as the new arrivals are given sufficient support and acceptance, it doesn't take long for people who are ethnically different to assimilate. Yes, the actual migrants may never lose their accents, their reverence for "back home" and "the old ways", but their offspring are virtually indistinguishable in outlook and behaviour from the others in whose environment they settled by the time they have become adults. This has been the case in Australia, starting with the Chinese in the 1850s, the post WWII wave of migration from central and east Europe, the 1950s wave of Mediterraneans (mainly Greek and Italian) and the "boat people" that arrived from Vietnam in the seventies.

The Turks have become a problem in Germany precisely because they have always been actively prevented by Germans from becoming part of the German fabric. It's akin to the medieval emperor who forbade Jews to do "honest christian work" such as carpentry, masonry, even farming. What were the Jews to do? Earn a living by doing jobs that they were not forbidden to do. Despised jobs. They became bankers and lawyers. Then the same people who excluded them from the so-called goodly and christian ways of earning a living had the fucking gall to point at them and accuse them of being "typically Jewish". The Jews in turn had no fucking option, had they? The 20th century Gastarbeiter found themselves in a similar position, and the Germans now find they have to deal with the mistakes they made in the past.



(This is a topic Coito ergo sum and I seem to be in agreement with. )

[Svartalf]

the point of a blood citizenship policy is to prevent foreign elements from acquiring citizenship.

Volga Germans were essentially Russians, but a number of them emigrated to West Germany, where they blended in and their children are now 100% normal Germans.

We, on the other hand, have enclaves full of Africans who have French papers, but don't recognize French laws and ideals and refuse to assimilate... we have third, maybe fourth generation algerians and west Africans who still speak Arabic or other native tongues better than French, despite 12 years of French schooling, whole neighborhoods where using French marks you as an outsider. Honor killing is not a completely dead custom, we still have a couple every year. They will go to their own leaders to resolve disputes, and avoid involving the administration or justice system unless they impinge on them... that is unless it's to get social benefits, of course.

[Coito ergo sum]

In Britain, if a Muslim is offended by your restaurant, he can make you remove your fans. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... slims.html

What if a non-Muslim is offended by the call to prayer? Or, the look of people in hijabs?

[leo-rcc]

In Britain, if a Muslim is offended by your restaurant, he can make you remove your fans. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... slims.html

Wow, that is fucked up.

[Svartalf]

Funny, here, extractor fans are required by law in professional kitchens...

[Warren Dew]

In Britain, if a Muslim is offended by your restaurant, he can make you remove your fans. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... slims.html

It's not clear to me whether the person complaining there is actually muslim, or is just using offense to his "muslim friends" as an excuse.

[Warren Dew]

Regarding Turkish Gastarbeiter, there is a flip-side to their behaviour. They were actually encouraged to come to Germany in order to fill job vacancies that have become too demeaning for a good German Spiessbürger that almost all its citizens had become by the time the post war economic miracle arrived. By the mid-sixties there were over a million of them, and they were treated with the same attitude that the Germans had with the work they were paid to do: despised, isolated and excluded from public view. They were ghettoised, not just in the mental but also in the physical sense. On the outskirts of my hometown were barrack-like quarters with sinks outside each living module for male (almost all Gastarbeiter from Turkey were male) cubicle to wash up after work. I saw one of those during a walk with some adult Germans. Not knowing what these strange, unfamiliar constructions were, and having my curiosity further aroused by their desolation and ugliness, I pointed and asked: "What is that?" One of the adults replied in a tone indicating this was going to be all I needed to know: "Gastarbeiter", and we walked on. The subject was never raised again.

Most Turkish Guest workers stayed in Germany for many years, and frequently for decades, which created another problem: the legal status of children of Gastarbeiter that were born and raised in Germany. In dealing with that issue the Germans did not exactly cover themselves with glory, to say the least.

After decades of such treatment, I guess the chickens have come home to roost for the Germans.

Your descriptions of how Turkish muslim immigrants were treated sound a lot like how Latino Catholic immigrants are treated in the U.S. It would be good for us not to let the situation get as far out of hand as it seems to have in Germany. What could or should Germany have done differently?

[Hermit]

What could or should Germany have done differently?

I don't know the situation now, but when I lived there, the guest workers were regarded as no more than that: guest-workers. They were not even thought of as potentially migrants. They were in Germany to work for a limited, though not specified time. They did jobs Germans wanted nothing to do with, sent money back 'home' to their relatives and were expected to eventually rejoin them in whatever shithole they had temporarily escaped from. Neither the German government nor the German people felt in any way obliged to give a damn for their welfare. Being thus comprehensively excluded from the fabric of German society, they kept to themselves and developed a Ghetto mentality. On average, each individual stayed far longer than anticipated, usually several years or even for decades. Guestworkers' enclaves became a permanent feature.

I think you can figure out what I think should have been done: they should have been accepted and integrated into the mainstream, both institutionally (welfare entitlements) and socially, but that was not something the Germans were willing to allow. Eventually, it has dawned on them that in view of the length of time guest workers stay in Germany, they must be included in at least some of the institutional entitlements everyone else benefits from, but they have shut the gate after the horse has bolted. The enclaves are well established and set hard. They cannot be integrated as easily as might have been the case in the past.


In passing, I should mention that I never really studied the issue. I am simply relating what I saw as a child and as a teenager when I lived there, so I make no claim that my description of the situation is anywhere near as accurate as it could be. Also, a small portion of guest workers, as redunderthebed already pointed out, did assimilate very well. One of my cousins was among them. My aunt could not have children, so she adopted one around 1950. He went to a public school, then spent five years in the German navy, and finished up making a good living in the electronics industry. His biological parents were Turkish.

[Hermit]

In Britain, if a Muslim is offended by your restaurant, he can make you remove your fans. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... slims.html

The name of the complainant, Webb-Lee, does not sound particularly muslim. His invocation of his muslim friends sounds like he is just doing some backfilling to bolster his case for getting the extractor removed. If the fan is, as he claims, 12 inches from his front door and "Stockport Council is right in saying that the smell from the fan is unacceptable on the grounds of residential amenity, I see no problem with the decision. If reason prevails, Council will probably finish up requiring the snack shop owners to add a duct to the top of the building.

[Robert_S]

In Britain, if a Muslim is offended by your restaurant, he can make you remove your fans. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... slims.html

The name of the complainant, Webb-Lee, does not sound particularly muslim. His invocation of his muslim friends sounds like he is just doing some backfilling to bolster his case for getting the extractor removed. If the fan is, as he claims, 12 inches from his front door and "Stockport Council is right in saying that the smell from the fan is unacceptable on the grounds of residential amenity, I see no problem with the decision. If reason prevails, Council will probably finish up requiring the snack shop owners to add a duct to the top of the building.

Daily mail.