Mystery solved. How and why human ancestors became hairless.

[rachelbean]

There's a fatal flaw in the reasoning. We lost our fur a long time before we started wearing clothes.

Sorry I missed replying to that.
Did we though? I don't think that's been established.
And if you look at all the other african mammals of a similar size, NOT ONE has lost it's fur.
So how could humans exist for millions of years, without fur, or clothes or shelter?

It's no good pointing to africans walking around with little on. They can take cover in bad weather. They can get under a warm skin blanket at night. They can light a fire.
How does a thirty kilo naked ape cope with long cold nights in torrential rain?
.

Um...am I confused or are you not realizing we all are African apes?

[Pappa]

There's a fatal flaw in the reasoning. We lost our fur a long time before we started wearing clothes.

Sorry I missed replying to that.
Did we though? I don't think that's been established.
And if you look at all the other african mammals of a similar size, NOT ONE has lost it's fur.
So how could humans exist for millions of years, without fur, or clothes or shelter?

It's no good pointing to africans walking around with little on. They can take cover in bad weather. They can get under a warm skin blanket at night. They can light a fire.
How does a thirty kilo naked ape cope with long cold nights in torrential rain?
.

Putting aside the point that we don't yet know when shelter was first developed, we do know that the Homo genus has been using tools for a long time. Tool use implies the mental ability to also make rudimentary clothing and shelter. Gorillas routinely make shelters from the rain so it would be perfectly understandable if Homo habilis (for example) could too.

I think you are also misunderstanding the difference between modern African tribal peoples and historical/prehistoric hunter-gatherers. The Hadza are a good example of hunter-gatherers in Africa that are probably representitive of pre-pastoralist / pre-agriculturalist cultures. They wear a thong or loincloth, and when they go on hunting excursions that take up to several days, they make no shelter at all. So, if they can do this without any obvious discomfort, it's likely prehistoric African peoples could do the same.

[PsychoSerenity]

Click link below to see how we lost our fur. (According to me that is).

(Link)



.

Well done mistermack! That's very clever of you.

[Rob]

Why the fuck is it written in different colors?

Who gives a toss? Not me. The ones I hate are black background with white writing.

AARGH MY FUCKING EYES!!! Do you seriously expect anyone to be able to read that shit?

Lots of people can read these days. This was really aimed at them. There are websites with lots of pictures and cartoons, you should get a grown-up to find them for you.

I'm used to peer reviewed journals in black and white, Mistermack. I would rather see blocks of text than a Disney coordinated color display.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Why the fuck is it written in different colors?

Who gives a toss? Not me. The ones I hate are black background with white writing.

AARGH MY FUCKING EYES!!! Do you seriously expect anyone to be able to read that shit?

Lots of people can read these days. This was really aimed at them. There are websites with lots of pictures and cartoons, you should get a grown-up to find them for you.

I'm used to peer reviewed journals in black and white, Mistermack. I would rather see blocks of text than a Disney coordinated color display.

Wut? It's the same style the guys that inform us about the impending end of the world use.

[mistermack]

Putting aside the point that we don't yet know when shelter was first developed, we do know that the Homo genus has been using tools for a long time. Tool use implies the mental ability to also make rudimentary clothing and shelter. Gorillas routinely make shelters from the rain so it would be perfectly understandable if Homo habilis (for example) could too.

Ok, but you're arguing now for very ancient use of clothing and shelter. But your point was that we lost our fur "long before we started wearing clothes".

I think you are also misunderstanding the difference between modern African tribal peoples and historical/prehistoric hunter-gatherers. The Hadza are a good example of hunter-gatherers in Africa that are probably representitive of pre-pastoralist / pre-agriculturalist cultures. They wear a thong or loincloth, and when they go on hunting excursions that take up to several days, they make no shelter at all. So, if they can do this without any obvious discomfort, it's likely prehistoric African peoples could do the same.

Ok, I do know a little bit about the Hadza, ( and I watched the Ray Mears edition with them ). It's a great shame they're under pressure.

They are fully modern humans of course. They know their environment intimately, and what weather to expect. ( hot and dry for long periods).
You are describing a hunting expedition by adult males, in the hot dry season.
You also have to take into account how a year-old infant survives in the rainy season on a cold wet night. They use shelter, blankets and fire.
.

[mistermack]

I'm used to peer reviewed journals in black and white, Mistermack. I would rather see blocks of text than a Disney coordinated color display.

That's fair enough. I wrote that piece years ago, and I was experimenting with making a web-page. It was never a piece for peer review, but I would do it differently today. It's still readable though. If I cared much, I would have changed it to black. It only takes a minute. I might do that for you.
.

[mistermack]

How does a thirty kilo naked ape cope with long cold nights in torrential rain?
.

Same way they do today.

That is, they wore clothing and used shelter (and possibly fire) long before they left tropical environments or ventured environments with great thermic amplitude like deserts.

I'm sure they did. It seems likely that they started using skins as blankets as soon as they were available. ie, when they started to kill larger game. There would be a natural transition from skin blanket to clothing, because in cold, wet periods, you might well carry a skin with you to keep the rain off. It doesn't take much thought to stick your arm through a hole, to make it easier to carry.
.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

[Pappa]

Ok, but you're arguing now for very ancient use of clothing and shelter. But your point was that we lost our fur "long before we started wearing clothes".

It doesn't matter either way. Yes we probably started using clothing/blankets of some kind a long time ago. I've heard a well thought out argument that the first human tool was probably a sling for carrying babies. They have no fur to hold onto, so need to be carried. A sling frees up the arms.

But, clothing or no clothing, it's irrelevant. People are quite capable of surviving in Africa without clothes. They have in the past and do in places today. Clothes aren't a requirement for survival.

Though that's not to say clothing, blankets and fire haven't all been used for a long time to make life more comfortable.

They are fully modern humans of course. They know their environment intimately, and what weather to expect. ( hot and dry for long periods).

Arguably, so do far less intelligent species such as wolves. The certainly act as is they know what to expect (whether they're self aware or not doesn't make much difference). So I expect any Homo species would know their environment intimately.

You are describing a hunting expedition by adult males, in the hot dry season.
You also have to take into account how a year-old infant survives in the rainy season on a cold wet night. They use shelter, blankets and fire.

Nope. They go out at any time of the year and so do the women and children (who gather more protein than the men hunt, btw).

[mistermack]

It doesn't matter either way. Yes we probably started using clothing/blankets of some kind a long time ago. I've heard a well thought out argument that the first human tool was probably a sling for carrying babies. They have no fur to hold onto, so need to be carried. A sling frees up the arms.

That's making the MASSIVE assumption that we lost our fur before we used any kind of tool. Bearing in mind the tool use of Chimpanzees, Bonobos, Gorillas, Orangutans and some monkeys, it's pretty unlikely.

The more upright stance COULD force babies to be carried in the arms, but only for a short period while they were very very young. Long powerful arms mean babies could easily ride high on the shoulders, with arms round the neck, or holding the mother's hair.

But, clothing or no clothing, it's irrelevant. People are quite capable of surviving in Africa without clothes. They have in the past and do in places today. Clothes aren't a requirement for survival.

Yes, but that's like saying that Chimpanzees Have fur, but don't NEED it. And Bonobos Have fur, but don't NEED it. And Gorillas Have fur, but don't NEED it. And Orangutans Have fur, but don't NEED it. And Baboons Have fur, but don't NEED it. I could go on for hours.
Doesn't it seem more likely that they DO need it? Given that the VERY FEW hairless mammals all have a clear and obvious reason why they don't need hair?

Nope. They go out at any time of the year and so do the women and children (who gather more protein than the men hunt, btw).

But going out in the day doesn't answer the question, 'what do they do in the worst weather at night?'

[Gawdzilla Sama]

But going out in the day doesn't answer the question, 'what do they do in the worst weather at night?'

Sleep in piles.

[mistermack]

Um...am I confused or are you not realizing we all are African apes?

You are a LITTLE bit confused. That's like saying that cheetahs are american cats.
We ARE apes, but I'm not African.
We EVOLVED from African apes, that's perfectly clear.
.

[Trolldor]

Is wearing clothes linked to Bipedalism? Surely they must have lost their hair at the same time. Being bipedal made the clothes easier to wear.

[Pappa]

Yes, but that's like saying that Chimpanzees Have fur, but don't NEED it. And Bonobos Have fur, but don't NEED it. And Gorillas Have fur, but don't NEED it. And Orangutans Have fur, but don't NEED it. And Baboons Have fur, but don't NEED it. I could go on for hours.
Doesn't it seem more likely that they DO need it? Given that the VERY FEW hairless mammals all have a clear and obvious reason why they don't need hair?

I assume the do need it. We don't. Perhaps we started using clothing and it became unnecessary. Perhaps we started using fire and it became unnecessary. Perhaps there was a more direct selection pressure against fur. I don't know.

But going out in the day doesn't answer the question, 'what do they do in the worst weather at night?'

The Hadza probably shelter close together under a tree with a fire. Maybe human ancestors did that, or something else, I don't know, but it's not hard to imagine them finding a way of dealing with any adverse conditions that might arise.