The Anti-Empire Report October 1st, 2010

[sandinista]

And it wasn't limited to unstable countries either. The CIA had some questionable involvement with neofascist groups in post WWII Italy. Operation Gladio didn't bring any good to either Italy or the US.

And do we have balance here, or is the OP just the standard anti-American tirade?

"standard anti american" wtf is that? Same as "standard anti nazi" or "standard anti commie" or "standard anti islam"? What the fuck are you talking about?

There you go again. (Feel free to report that post, too.)

again with what? Please read your posts before hitting the submit button. Why would I report that?

[Coito ergo sum]

It would be difficult to name a single brutal dictatorship of the Western world in the second half of the 20th Century that was not supported by the United States; not only supported, but often put into power and kept in power against the wishes of the population.

THat line for instance is an outright fallacy and you know it. Additionally the questions he asks to be answered are ridiculous. Even with those answers he could not point to a government conspiracy.

Yes, it is patently false:

List of brutal dictatorships of the Western world in the second half of the 20th century that were not supported by the US or often in power by the US:

Nikita Kruschev
Marshall Tito
Idi Amin (not sure if Afric is considered "wetern" here)
Juan Peron
Slobodon Milosovic
Nicolas Ciacescu
Francisco Franco
Moammar Qadafi (not sure if Africa is considered "western" here)
Fidel Castro
Several Brazilian military dictators from 1964 to 1985


Not too difficult.....

[sandinista]

as compared to:

Emperor Bao Dai
Ngo Dinh Diem
Chiang Kai-shek
Syngman Rhee
Park Chung Hee
General Chun Doo Hwan
Laurent Kabila
Idi Amin
General Sani Abacha
Francisco Franco
General Humberto Castelo Branco
Marco Vinicio Cerezo Arévalo
Roberto Suazo Cَrdova
Anastasio Somoza
General Suharto
Colonel Hugo Banzer Suarez
Reza Muhammed Shah Pahlawi (Shah of Iran)
Augusto Ugarte Pinnochet
Fulgencio Batista
P.W. Botha
Saddam Hussein
Rafael Leonidas Molina Trujillo
Porfirio Diaz
Anwar Al Saddat
Husni Mubarak
King Hussein
King Abdulla
Papa Doc
Baby Duc

as a small example/list...the statement is more than valid. Castro a "brutal dictator", I could name a dozen US presidents that have been more brutal than castro, wouldn't exactly count him. Also, when you snip a quote you generally miss the context. The "dictator" quote followed this: "We also know from experience that those who defend these [universal] values for their people have been our closest friends and allies, while those who have denied those rights — whether terrorist groups or tyrannical governments — have chosen to be our adversaries." An Obama quote which is proven utterly false by the FACT that the US has supported dictators and terrorists for decades.

"Yes, of course it's nice to have a president who speaks in complete sentences. But that they're coherent doesn't make them honest." — John R. MacArthur, publisher of Harper's Magazine.

[Coito ergo sum]

as compared to:

Emperor Bao Dai
Ngo Dinh Diem
Chiang Kai-shek
Syngman Rhee
Park Chung Hee
General Chun Doo Hwan
Laurent Kabila
Idi Amin
General Sani Abacha
Francisco Franco
General Humberto Castelo Branco
Marco Vinicio Cerezo Arévalo
Roberto Suazo Cَrdova
Anastasio Somoza
General Suharto
Colonel Hugo Banzer Suarez
Reza Muhammed Shah Pahlawi (Shah of Iran)
Augusto Ugarte Pinnochet
Fulgencio Batista
P.W. Botha
Saddam Hussein
Rafael Leonidas Molina Trujillo
Porfirio Diaz
Anwar Al Saddat
Husni Mubarak
King Hussein
King Abdulla
Papa Doc
Baby Duc

as a small example/list...the statement is more than valid. Castro a "brutal dictator", I could name a dozen US presidents that have been more brutal than castro, wouldn't exactly count him.

Didn't the article use the modifier "western"? And the assertion was that it would be "hard to find" any western brutal dictator that the US hadn't installed or supported. Clearly, it wasn't hard at all.

You wouldn't count Castro???? A guy who seized power in a military coup, and held it with an iron fist for over 50 years? Are you serious?

He was far more "brutal" of a dictator than Ngo Dihn Diem. And, you exaggerate your list - as if the US "installed" Francisco Franco. The US had nothing to do with putting him in power, and only established a trade alliance after World War 2. We didn't "support" him any more than any other country that did business with him. You seem to credit the US with "propping up" or "installing" any dictator with whom the US had any dealings. Based on your standard, France, Britain and almost everyone else also installed and propped up many of these dictators.

Some of your list is certainly accurate, though.

[sandinista]

Who did Castro "seize" power from? Also, clearly, the point being made is a valid one. Anyone with any knowledge at all of US foreign policy knows this.

[JimC]

Very deceptive, trying to make a connection between the floods in Pakistan, and America "dropping bombs" there...

The small number of highly-targetted bombs (missiles, actually) have fallen on insurgent leaders in tribal areas near the Afghani border, nowhere near the flood-ravaged areas.

[Coito ergo sum]

Who did Castro "seize" power from? Also, clearly, the point being made is a valid one. Anyone with any knowledge at all of US foreign policy knows this.

What needs to be kept clear is that the point being made is what is actually written. The point made was simply wrong.

Your different point, that the US has supported bad guys, is correct, but that was not what the article asserted.

Castro took power by military force from Batista, also an unsavory character. Batista's unsavoryness, however, does not make Castro less of a brutal dictator. Castro took power, stating "power does not interest me, and I will not take it." He then proceeded to hold power for the next 50 years-ish. He "handed the reigns" to his brother Raul. After gaining power, his first step was to oust the liberals and democrats, and opposed free elections: "Revolution first, elections later!" LOL He expropriated property, and limited property ownership. He excluded foreigners from owning any land in Cuba - a measure which if done by the US would be called racist, I'm sure. He locked up homosexuals in concentration camps in the 1960s (he apologized a month or two ago) - he put "disloyal" folks in similar camps, but never apologized.

[sandinista]

semantics, the point is still valid.

[Coito ergo sum]

semantics, the point is still valid.

What do you think the point was?

[sandinista]

Obama: "We also know from experience that those who defend these [universal] values for their people have been our closest friends and allies, while those who have denied those rights — whether terrorist groups or tyrannical governments — have chosen to be our adversaries."=bullshit. Same point being made in the article. The US has allied with some of the most vile governments in recent history.

[Trolldor]

The US is not the only nation to do so, either.

[sandinista]

so? They ARE the nation that has a history of supporting brutal leaders while at the same time claim to be on a mission to spread "democracy" and "freedom". Thats where the issue is. If they never made all these false claims and simply stated that they will support anyone who they see as representing their best interests regardless of human rights, democracy, or any of these other "ideals" then so be it.

[Coito ergo sum]

Obama: "We also know from experience that those who defend these [universal] values for their people have been our closest friends and allies, while those who have denied those rights — whether terrorist groups or tyrannical governments — have chosen to be our adversaries."=bullshit. Same point being made in the article. The US has allied with some of the most vile governments in recent history.

Sometimes. However, it's important that words mean what they say, and because the US has sometimes supported dictators does not mean that it would be difficult to find one it didn't support. The author was going to far, and suggesting that the US was the universal dictator-supporter and creator, implying that the US not only supported all second-half-of-20th-century dictators, but INSTALLED them.

The US lives in the real world, and unfortunately sometimes, like everyone else, the US has to deal with the not-so-savory dictatorships in the world. Of course, there were times when the US did prop up and take terrible action to support horrible dictators - e.g. Augusto Pinochet.

The opposed some of the worst dictators ever, also - Hitler, Mussolini, Franco (in the beginning), Hirohito, Ho Chi Minh, Pol Pot, Ayatollah Khomeini, Saddam Hussein, Moamar Qaddafi, Castro, and many others. I can list at least as many brutal dictators that the US opposed as you can list alleging that the US installed or propped up. By your logic, I could state, "It would be hard to find a dictator that the US didn't oppose," and when you said "aha! Take a look at all these dictators they didn't oppose," I can still say, "well, the point is still valid, just semantics."

[Coito ergo sum]

so? They ARE the nation that has a history of supporting brutal leaders while at the same time claim to be on a mission to spread "democracy" and "freedom". Thats where the issue is. If they never made all these false claims and simply stated that they will support anyone who they see as representing their best interests regardless of human rights, democracy, or any of these other "ideals" then so be it.

The US has supported democracy and freedom around the world. That's not to say the US hasn't also advanced other interests by supporting dictators, too.

The great thing about the US, though, is that it is still able to change and correct itself. The ideology you espouse doesn't allow that. That's why you support guys like Castro. You scoff at the freedoms and liberties in a country like the US and Canada, and yet you seem to think things in Cuba are grand and Castro is not a "brutal dictator."

[Trolldor]

The countries and the ideology he espouses tends to not to be too fond of the first amendement either.