United States government deliberately infects...

[sandinista]

never said you were american. I see what you're saying, but really thats not the point. You could say the same thing for pretty much any post. I post what interests me, and american foreign policy interests me. There have been many posts on Afghanastan, Cuba, Venezuala, The UK, North Korea, Iraq, Iran, Israel, etc. Why not posts on the US?

[Robert_S]

When one person posts exclusively on one subject, it can come across kinda biased.

I don't really care for US foreign policy either, but what solutions are you proposing? As a Mercan, I can probably get a bigger hate on than Sandanista. But that doesn't really do much good that I've ever seen.

If we're so fucked as a country that nothing we can ever do will ever un-fuck us, then where's the motivation to change?

[charlou]

When one person posts exclusively on one subject, it can come across kinda biased.

I don't really care for US foreign policy either, but what solutions are you proposing? As a Mercan, I can probably get a bigger hate on than Sandanista. But that doesn't really do much good that I've ever seen.

If we're so fucked as a country that nothing we can ever do will ever un-fuck us, then where's the motivation to change?

You don't think awareness and discussion are a start?

[sandinista]

When one person posts exclusively on one subject, it can come across kinda biased.

I don't really care for US foreign policy either, but what solutions are you proposing? As a Mercan, I can probably get a bigger hate on than Sandanista. But that doesn't really do much good that I've ever seen.

If we're so fucked as a country that nothing we can ever do will ever un-fuck us, then where's the motivation to change?

You don't think awareness and discussion are a start?

If not, what is the purpose of forums?

[maiforpeace]

When one person posts exclusively on one subject, it can come across kinda biased.

I don't really care for US foreign policy either, but what solutions are you proposing? As a Mercan, I can probably get a bigger hate on than Sandanista. But that doesn't really do much good that I've ever seen.

If we're so fucked as a country that nothing we can ever do will ever un-fuck us, then where's the motivation to change?

You don't think awareness and discussion are a start?

If not, what is the purpose of forums?

If you mean this, then I'm a bit puzzled Sandinista. A few people have responded to this thread and the Tillman thread in a meaningful way, yet you seem to focus on the people who have been giving you grief, to the exclusion of responding to those who have posted thoughtfully.

If we're so fucked as a country that nothing we can ever do will ever un-fuck us, then where's the motivation to change?

I think we are trying to. Acknowledging that the US did this is the first step. Learning from this horrible mistake is also important, and seems to be the next step the US is taking.

U.S. officials will convene a committee of independent experts to conduct a "fact finding investigation" and will issue a report on the results, HHS said.

U.S. officials will also establish an international group of experts "to review and report on the most effective methods to ensure that all human medical research conducted around the globe today meets rigorous ethical standards and how training of researchers will ensure such abuses do not occur," HHS said.

What I would like to hear is what we are going to do to make amends to those people. Nothing really has been said about that yet.

[Coito ergo sum]

A fine example of US history. Sad to say, this doesn't surprise me in the least.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11454789

The United States government has apologised for deliberately infecting hundreds of people in Guatemala with gonorrhoea and syphilis as part of medical tests more than 60 years ago.

None of those infected - mentally ill patients and prisoners - consented.

Guatemalan President Alvaro Colom accused the US of "crimes against humanity".

US President Barack Obama has called Mr Colom to apologise and has said the acts ran contrary to American values.

"contrary to american values?? Really? This is right in line with US values, Obama has his head up his ass.

Yes, that is horrid, and there are no excuses for it.

Lot's of shitty things were done in the past. In 1927, the US Supreme Court upheld, by an 8-1 margin, the compulsory sterilization of the mentally ill. Oliver Wendell Holmes wrote the opinion of the court, and uttered the famous phrase, "three generations of imbeciles is enough." This is shocking stuff, and warranting of much criticism and examination.

However, bear in mind that all countries have dark times in their pasts. The Japanese conducted the Rape of Nanking, and forced Korean women by the millions to be "comfort women." The Russians shipped millions of political dissidents to the Gulag Archipelago.

The British tortured members of the IRA and Sinn Fein.

The Canadians during imprisoned thousands of Ukrainian-Canadians as enemy aliens, forcing them to report regularly to police authorities. They endured indignities such as disenfranchisement, restrictions on freedom of speech and movement, deportation and confiscation of wealth and property. In World War 2 in Sicily, Canadian forces murdered German prisoners of war, and Canadian units in Normandy violated the Hague convention by issuing orders not to take prisoners under any circumstances and shooting Germans who had already surrendered.

The French committed mass crimes against humanity in World War 2 - one example being the mass kidnappings, rapes and murders of up to 12,000 civilians in Goumiers after the battle of Monte Cassino. The French committed genocide and crimes against humanity in Algeria.

The Italians have much to answer for in Ethiopia.

Germany was among the main catalysts toward the colonial World War 1, and of course, there is hardly a worse crime against humanity than what happened from 1933 to 1945.

Atrocities are a function of humanity, and are not particularly an American invention. On balance, over the last 225 years the American contributions to the world have been good, and the atrocities few in number. That doesn't make them any less horrid. It just puts in perspective your political agenda here, which is to lambaste the United States and paint a false picture that somehow the US is "worse" than other countries. It isn't.

[Coito ergo sum]

I don't think so. I'm sure if he were we'd have a day for it, knowing the Irish.

Conan is a Cimmerian (based somewhat loosely on the Celts), a barbarian of the far north. One of his grandfathers, however, came from a southern tribe. He was born on a battlefield and is the son of a village blacksmith.

The Celts came from Scandanavia. We were invaded by barbarians from the North.

???????

That isn't what I've read.

Well that's what happened.

Actually, no, the Celts originated in central Europe - western France, Switzerland, Germany, Austria area (proto-Celtic people around 800-450BC). By 450BC to the early part of the first century AD, they had expanded to Celtic societies in France, Spain, Britain, Germany and into the Balkans.

The Goths are thought to have originated in Scandinavia, specifically the island of Gothland which is part of Sweden. The Goths migrated south into continental Europe and expanded into the Ostrogoths and the Visigoths during Roman times.

[Coito ergo sum]

When one person posts exclusively on one subject, it can come across kinda biased.

I don't really care for US foreign policy either, but what solutions are you proposing? As a Mercan, I can probably get a bigger hate on than Sandanista. But that doesn't really do much good that I've ever seen.

If we're so fucked as a country that nothing we can ever do will ever un-fuck us, then where's the motivation to change?

You don't think awareness and discussion are a start?

If not, what is the purpose of forums?

If you mean this, then I'm a bit puzzled Sandinista. A few people have responded to this thread and the Tillman thread in a meaningful way, yet you seem to focus on the people who have been giving you grief, to the exclusion of responding to those who have posted thoughtfully.

If we're so fucked as a country that nothing we can ever do will ever un-fuck us, then where's the motivation to change?

I think we are trying to. Acknowledging that the US did this is the first step. Learning from this horrible mistake is also important, and seems to be the next step the US is taking.

U.S. officials will convene a committee of independent experts to conduct a "fact finding investigation" and will issue a report on the results, HHS said.

U.S. officials will also establish an international group of experts "to review and report on the most effective methods to ensure that all human medical research conducted around the globe today meets rigorous ethical standards and how training of researchers will ensure such abuses do not occur," HHS said.

What I would like to hear is what we are going to do to make amends to those people. Nothing really has been said about that yet.

On the issue of Sandinista's posts - I think he's posted pertinent, newsworthy stuff, most of the time. He has an obvious bias and political motive. However, that's the fodder for discussion, as I see it. I wouldn't call much, if anything, Sandinista posted as "trolling," but then again some of what I posted in the past has been called trolling and elicited many of the same attacks he is getting from people. Some people seem to think that others have some obligation to be "balanced" with their threads and thread titles. Usually that obligation is imposed, however, in a decidedly unbalanced fashion.

The Guatamalen atrocity involving Americans infecting individuals with STD's is a sickening incident, and certainly worthy of discussion. The attribution of that as a function of Americanism, as something to be considered part of the American character, is a matter of opinion and worthy of vigorous debate.

[Ian]

The Guatamalen atrocity involving Americans infecting individuals with STD's is a sickening incident, and certainly worthy of discussion. The attribution of that as a function of Americanism, as something to be considered part of the American character, is a matter of opinion and worthy of vigorous debate.

I'm not sure what "Americanism" is, but in terms of our present-day government taking action beyond the apologies already given, I'd say that it really does come down to a statute of limitations. I don't know where this falls on it, but I'm inclined to say outside the boundaries.

Simply offering some measure of compensation might sound like "the right thing to do", but is it? It'd be more of a publicity stunt. If your grandfather was robbed seventy years ago and the perpetrator was never caught, and the police somehow learned just today that it was my grandfather that did it, would I be obligated to fork over a wad of cash from my wallet? I would hope not. Maybe if both grandfathers were still alive there might be some justice done, but this is where the analogy falters. The point is, compensation takes the form of modern-day American taxpayers being penalized for something they had nothing to do with; indeed, two generations ago I very much doubt they would have approved of such experiments any more than we do today.

Like you mentioned earlier, every nation (each one being comprised of human beings) has unfortunate episodes in its past. But nobody is suggesting that Mongolia compensate the rest of Asia for the troubles of the 13th Century. So... how far back does one draw a line? I don't have a definitive answer to that.

As for this episode in particular, questions still abound: exactly who knew about this, and how high up did it go? Did the President or a Congressional committee give a specific go-ahead? I doubt it, but I'm not aware of all the details. Political leaders may be ultimately responsible for something that happens on their watch, but how well does that translate to their heirs being obligated to fork over compensation? Like I said, there must be a statute of limitations somewhere. If there isn't, there needs to be.

[Pappa]

Actually, no, the Celts originated in central Europe - western France, Switzerland, Germany, Austria area (proto-Celtic people around 800-450BC). By 450BC to the early part of the first century AD, they had expanded to Celtic societies in France, Spain, Britain, Germany and into the Balkans.

That's no longer thought to be the case. British and Irish Celts are though to be distinct from the Celts of mainland Europe. They share some cultural traits, but not a great deal else. There's almost no evidence to back up the earlier idea that the Celts moved in from mainland Europe. The genetic evidence suggests they were one and the same people as the Beakers that inhabited the islands before the Celts. The linguistic evidence is lacking because the mainland European Celtic languages didn't survive. The evidence for cultural transmission is inconclusive and very subjective.

[Coito ergo sum]

The Guatamalen atrocity involving Americans infecting individuals with STD's is a sickening incident, and certainly worthy of discussion. The attribution of that as a function of Americanism, as something to be considered part of the American character, is a matter of opinion and worthy of vigorous debate.

I'm not sure what "Americanism" is, but in terms of our present-day government taking action beyond the apologies already given, I'd say that it really does come down to a statute of limitations. I don't know where this falls on it, but I'm inclined to say outside the boundaries.

Simply offering some measure of compensation might sound like "the right thing to do", but is it? It'd be more of a publicity stunt. If your grandfather was robbed seventy years ago and the perpetrator was never caught, and the police somehow learned just today that it was my grandfather that did it, would I be obligated to fork over a wad of cash from my wallet? I would hope not. Maybe if both grandfathers were still alive there might be some justice done, but this is where the analogy falters. The point is, compensation takes the form of modern-day American taxpayers being penalized for something they had nothing to do with; indeed, two generations ago I very much doubt they would have approved of such experiments any more than we do today.

Like you mentioned earlier, every nation (each one being comprised of human beings) has unfortunate episodes in its past. But nobody is suggesting that Mongolia compensate the rest of Asia for the troubles of the 13th Century. So... how far back does one draw a line? I don't have a definitive answer to that.

As for this episode in particular, questions still abound: exactly who knew about this, and how high up did it go? Did the President or a Congressional committee give a specific go-ahead? I doubt it, but I'm not aware of all the details. Political leaders may be ultimately responsible for something that happens on their watch, but how well does that translate to their heirs being obligated to fork over compensation? Like I said, there must be a statute of limitations somewhere. If there isn't, there needs to be.

Americanism is the customs, traits, or things peculiar to the United States of America or its citizens. Obama said that the purposeful infection of people with STD's doesn't represent America or American ideals, or some such lingo, and Sandinista has said that purposeful infection is, in fact, very "American." Thus, the issue is at hand - is it "American" to purposefully infect people? That's where "Americanism" comes in.

What should be done about it another thing. Perhaps an apology for the past conduct, I don't know.

[Coito ergo sum]

Actually, no, the Celts originated in central Europe - western France, Switzerland, Germany, Austria area (proto-Celtic people around 800-450BC). By 450BC to the early part of the first century AD, they had expanded to Celtic societies in France, Spain, Britain, Germany and into the Balkans.

That's no longer thought to be the case. British and Irish Celts are though to be distinct from the Celts of mainland Europe. They share some cultural traits, but not a great deal else. There's almost no evidence to back up the earlier idea that the Celts moved in from mainland Europe. The genetic evidence suggests they were one and the same people as the Beakers that inhabited the islands before the Celts. The linguistic evidence is lacking because the mainland European Celtic languages didn't survive. The evidence for cultural transmission is inconclusive and very subjective.

Julius Caesar, in the 1st century BC, wrote about celts in Britain, who had previously migrated from Belgium.

The genetic evidence confirms this - showing a dissimilarity between the Irish and Welsh populations and the southeast English population with respect to certain key genetic markers. The Irish and Welsh shared certain genetic markers that made them closer to Basques.

There is plenty of evidence that Celts moved from mainland Europe to Britain - however, it wasn't a conquest and extermination, it was more of a cultural contact, and absorption, type thing over centuries.

But - they did not come from Scandinavia, which was the assertion I took issue with anyway.

[Svartalf]

Problem is that a lot of people who settled in britain came from an area, Northern Germany, the Netherlands and modern Denmark, where Celts and Germans overlapped copiously during the classical and hellenistic periods... After all, that area was officially regarded as Belgica by the Romans, that is, part of Gaul, and the fact that a wealth of Iron age Celtic artifacts were found there indicates Celtic presence until a relatively recent date, but by the time of the Great Migrations and the fall of the Roman Empire, the place was full of Angles, Jutes, Saxons, Geats and I don't know how many more perfectly Germanic peoples...