Sisifo wrote:To the OP and some of the ideas written here, some reflections on my own:
It is not the same to insult, that to feel insulted. It is not the same to attack, that to feel attacked. The difference is very important. Often, if one feels insulted or attacked when nobody is doing so, the problem is within oneself. I don't think that anybody is seeing an intention of insult on building a Muslim anything -whether temple, or library- close to ground zero. Or when any other Muslim manifestation is built in any area. Regardless of that, the reaction is that of a deep unforgivable insult.
I agree that it is not the same to insult as to feel insulted, etc. I disagree that nobody is seeing an intention to insult, though. I see an intention to insult on the part of the Cordoba Initiative. That group's effort, as Ibn Warraq put it, is: "For me far from being a symbol of tolerance, the Islamic center is a symbol of Islamic triumphalism." That's an insult to us.
Sisifo wrote:
To justify that reaction I read, even here, such shameful generalizations, falsehoods, unbalanced assertions, that it is hard to believe -or sad to remember- that one of the reasons that the rational, scientific, and most atheist communities I have browsed, start as a solace from that attitude.
Examples? What "shameful generalizations?" Nobody has said anything about all Muslims. I, for one, have an issue with Imam Rauf and the Cordoba Initiative in general. I take him at his word. Can't I do that? Is that a "shameful generalization?" What falsehoods? I would love to discuss the specifics.
Generally, when someone makes these kinds of allegations of "generalizations" and "falsehoods" without specific examples, it's because what they're really complaining about is negative value judgments. I could be wrong in this case. If I am, please, by all means, give your top couple of examples of "shameful generalizations" and "falsehoods."
I don't even know what an "unbalanced assertion" is. I know what an assertion is. It's a statement of alleged fact or an allegation that something exists or has happened. But "unbalanced?" The sky is blue, appears to me to be an "unbalanced" assertion. I need not balance that assertion with references to the sky being purple. It's up to the people who claim the sky is purple to balance the argument by making their own argument.
Sisifo wrote:
To the general statements versed in this -and similar- threads, I can say that I have found absolutely no religion repression in most of the Muslim countries I have lived.
Whu whu what????? I find that hard to believe, but I will not argue with you because it has absolutely no relevance whatsoever to the mosque being built at ground zero. It is lawful to build the mosque where they want to build it, and they won't be discriminated against based on their adherence to that shitbag religion. But, the Cordoba Initiative still is a pack of Sharia loving bigots, and if their intention, as they CLAIM is to reach across the divide to join Muslims and non-Muslims together, then they would be sensitive to the feelings of those they seek to reach. As Ibn Warraq said, "If Rauf truly wanted to build bridges, as he claimed, then he has failed in a spectacular way."
Sisifo wrote:
And actually, in Syria, Jordan, and pre-war Iraq it's openness to other beliefs was a matter of pride, including some traditions of building a mosque and a church sharing one wall. I am under the impression that probably Muslim minorities are having a tougher time in most western countries, than copt christians in Egypt, or nestorians in Syria, Turkey or Iran.
That's a laugh and a half. Muslims are doing just fine in most western countries, and that includes the United States. Mosques are built with wild abandon, and nobody says a word to them. Millions of Muslims live and prosper in the US, without extraordinarily few incidents. This is one mosque we're talking about, on one especially sensitive site where mass-murderers flew planes into crowded buildings full of innocent people and they yelled, "Allahu Akbar!!!!" until their bodies were pulverized to oblivion. Please - I mean - really - please - for years now we've heard piss after moan from the "Muslim world" of all the "insults to Islam," and we endured riots over mild to tame cartoons published in an obscure Danish newspaper with a circulation in the 100's of thousands at most - and we watched cities burning and people dying as a result of the sheer pain and suffering Muslims endured as a result of the "humiliation" at having to coexist with such cartoons - and now we are not entitled to feel even a twinge of offense to having a holy place of the religion that motivated the 9/11/01 mass murderers placed right there at the doorstep of that very murder site? Fuck me sideways -- again, as Ibn Warraq put it: "If the Center is ever built, then I do not ever want to hear anyone talking about the hurt sensibilities of Muslims again."
Sisifo wrote:
I have never met any Muslim family in any city who advocated or defended the ablation; on the other hand I have met the practice in Villages in Africa that were not only following Islam; also in Christian ones, and Animistic and -as usually happens- a mix of those.
Who cares? That has nothing at all to do with the Cordoba "cultural center."
Sisifo wrote:
Like in any modern country, the families I have found have a goal for their children to go to the university and get a good job. And like any modern countries, women seem to have better academic success. I have not seen in real life worse treatment from men to their wives and daughters than in Southamerica, Spain, France, Cambodia, pick a country at random. What I have found, though, is a parallel treatment or behavior in the family among similarly educated people, regardless of their nationality, religion or ethnic background.
Nobody ever said that Muslims were bad people. That has nothing to do with the Cordoba Initiative, the pack of Sha'ria pushers, building an Islamic Arc d'Triumph at the door of Ground Zero. I lived through that day. I read the writings of bin Laden and his cohorts. I read the material about the Blind Sheikh, who first tried to blow up the World Trade Center in 1993 with the truck bombs. I read the Fatwa Against Jews and Crusaders. I read bin Laden's Declaration of War Against the United States. These people, including those who murdered our friends, countrymen and women, and the innocent citizens of other countries, said they were motivated by Islam. I think I have a right to take them at their word.
And, if people want to bridge the divide and help us understand Islam, then they will see how the west was asked (no...told under threat of violence) to "understand Muslim angst about images of the [false] Prophet Mohamet," and then perhaps ...perhaps....strain a little bit...reach and bend their minds a little bit...and see that it might be a tad bit hypocritical and in bad taste to ask us to swallow our offense at building what appears to many to be triumphal edifice right at a very sore spot....
Sisifo wrote:
There is an unfiltered anger,
Anger - yes. I'm angry, and will be for the rest of my life, at groups that support ideas and views that motivated those that caused 9/11/01. I am angry, yes, at any religion, including Islam, which preaches falsehoods, misogyny, and homophobia, and oppresses non-Muslims, and has no real concept of freedom of speech and press, and has no concept of separation of church and state. Yes, that makes me angry because it is an affront to human dignity and the liberty of the people.
Sisifo wrote:
hate and despise speech
Hate and despise Islam - yes. It's a complete and utter falsehood sold as truth to humans, and used to motivate horrific acts. Contempt may be a better word. Yes, that's it. Contempt. And, loathing. I like how that word sounds relative to Islam. I loathe Islam.
Sisifo wrote:
towards a human group comprehending millions and millions of people, that it is pertinent to bring here, because it happens here and because its roots are shown here.
A "human group?" Yeah - any group that would seek, like the Cordoba Initiative, to have Sha'ria imposed on anyone, non-Muslims or Muslims, is deserving of a great deal of hatred, derision and contempt.
Sisifo wrote:
Before 9-11, Islam had no more reactions to its practice than the Amish or Mormons. Maybe some "stupid people", but certainly not hate. The news were showing the Talibans stoning to death women, bombing images of Buddah, and it would not even deserve a mention in the Pub with the pals.
Today, they are mentioned -them all; the only good Muslim is the dead Muslim,
Who the fuck says that - really? "The only good Muslim is a dead Muslim?" Who? Some hillbilly fucktwit in backasswater Mississippi? Give me a break. What the West really does, by and large, is bend over backwards to be clear ....say it with me now..... repeat after me...."Islam is a great religion. Islam is a religion of peace. The vast majority of Muslims are good, kind and caring people. We don't want to lump all Muslims in with the bad ones." Keep repeating in response to any statement concerning or regarding Islam, Cordoba, or the mosque issue, because that way all criticism of ANY Muslim must be discounted as a criticism of ALL Muslims.
Sisifo wrote:
as it can be interpreted from comments here-, like Germans were in WWII, or Japaneses at the same time. North Vietnamese or any other mortal enemy.
With a difference. Most of a decade (allow me to round up) will soon have passed since 9-11.
And, why - pray tell - would Cordoba and Imam Rauf want to open their new "cultural center" at ground zero 10 years to the day since 9/11/01, on 9/11/10? Why? To "honor" the fallen innocents? To express outrage against the mass murderers? Clearly not. Because opening it on that day doesn't do either of those things, and they haven't made a single statement suggesting that is what they intend. The only reason for placing it on a symbolic 10-years-to-the-day date is, as Ibn Warraq pointed out, to display a triumph.
Sisifo wrote:
In 1955, Europe was business as usual, and resentments were rare to find. By 1955, instead of hate for Pearl Harbour, it started a fascination towards far east and Japanese culture. For most of the people, in 1955 Pearl Harbour was history. The world had passed page, and we were in another chapter.
A little bit more than 10 years, by 1988, Vietnam started the Doi Moi, economic and cultural opening.
But that hasn't happened in our chapter of history. 9 years past and hate and resentment to a whole part of human kind, based on uninformed, TV hearsay, is at its peak.
You are dead wrong. Nobody hates all Muslims. Muslims - all 1.4 billion of them, are not an "oppressed group." What people opposed to the Mosque oppose are the Sha'ria pushers, like the Cordoba group, and the extremist Muslim groups that have committed 80% of the terrorist activities in the last 25 years. We all fucking know damn well that "not all" Muslims are in those groups, and thankfully most aren't. But, enough are. And, also, Muslim countries like Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Iran, etc. are oppressive, horrible, despotic regimes. That's not "uninformed, TV hearsay," that is knowledge of how those countries are actually governed. The fact that they are even called "Muslim countries" is horrific. It's disgusting. No country is inherently of a particular religion, yet "Muslim countries" place Islam in a position of primacy because Islam REQUIRES that. There is no separation of church and state. It is by nature, oppression and despotism when it is mixed with the power of the State.
Sisifo wrote:
As I started, if you feel insulted when nobody is trying to, the problem is all yours. And it's already 9 years with the problem. Enough already.
Look - I'm perfectly fine with you and any Muslims expressing this sentiment. Sure, you can tell us to get over it. You can tell us it's 9 years since Islam motivated the mass murder of thousands of my countrymen and women and others, and you can pretend all you want that groups like the Cordoba Initiative aren't still fighting the good fight for their cause.
I would love if that were the prevailing view, because then we wouldn't have to tap-dance anymore and tip-toe around Muslims. I'll repeat, "If the Center is ever built, then I do not ever want to hear anyone talking about the hurt sensibilities of Muslims again." Ever - enough already.
I'm really a bit shocked at the sentiment you've displayed here - WE have the problem? It's 9 years, so "enough already?" You minimize and discount our feelings on this subject in that way? Well, I'll be damned. Adherents to Islam can be the biggest sodding crybabies on the planet, pushing for blasphemy laws to protect their tender feelings, rioting en masse over silly cartoons because their delicate sensibilities are injured, crying to the heavens if something untoward happens to their "holy" book, and falling in tears if someone "insults" their revered false prophet..... and you say it's "enough already" since it's 9 years since I watched my cousin die in an Islam inspired monstrous act of mass murder?
. And then when they come back, they can 
) .......they are rights which folk grant to each other on the strict quid pro quo that they will be reciprocated. 
